I’d written my always eagerly anticipated Good, Bad & Ugly post-match take, but then I got distracted and didn’t put it up quickly enough. All the clever wags on here had pretty much covered the bases anyway. So, as we look forward to Nottingham Forest, I’ll simply give you the good, then we’ll move along.

Obviously, winning The Derby is always a good. Three points are also good, but I suspect they were just incidental icing to supporters. Three points can be had any time, bragging rights last at least until the next time we beat the vermin.

Four goals? I’ll take that. Three on the trot? I’ll take that, too. That’s nine goals to the good over the span and just two against. And Deano wants more.

Without John McGinn’s engine in midfield, Villa somehow managed to make do with Glen Whelan in his place, though between him and a less-than-match-ready James Chester, there were some sloppy moments at the back, one of which led to blue’s second. That doesn’t seem like a “good,” but I’m encouraged Villa found a way to work around those limitations, especially in such a hotly contested match. They bent but didn’t break.

Up until he was injured, Albert Adomah was having a great game, providing the balls that saw Jonathan Kodjia equalize and Jack Grealish put Villa ahead. Adomah was a constant threat down the right that city couldn’t quite cope with. And he was obviously a key part of the very good response following Jutkiewicz’s opener, with Villa netting twice in two minutes, and just nine after falling behind. Though the visitors didn’t quit, it clearly sucked a bit of wind from their sails, and Abraham’s penalty ringing in off the inside of the right post was enough to give small heath too big a hill to climb.

Kodjia finding the back of the net again was a welcome reward for Smith’s patience. While he still isn’t at his best, he didn’t look out of place today, and did a much better job of not trying to do too much offensively. Indeed, he tracked back well, and played his way into the game instead of waiting for it to come to him. He’s becoming more of a team player, and I give him credit for taking his place seriously enough to do that. Bolasie had a decent cameo, also tracking back and providing forward impetus.

Hourihane forced a very fine save from Lee Camp on a curling free kick that looked destined to slip inside the far corner. Abraham will be disappointed about the point-blank header he missed. Jack’s goal? Not the kind we’re used to seeing from him when he does score, but seeing that Smith’s emphasis on getting him to produce goals is paying dividends, he should feel pretty good about grabbing his second on the year.

And of course, who will ever forget Cafu barging his way through the entire small heath side to coolly slot home and put the game to bed.

Okay, I’ll do a bit of Ugly: Craig Gardner. Look, Craig. You got demoted, play in a crap side, and bitterness isn’t attractive. ’Nuff said.

So. There’s that. Not a vintage performance in Smith’s eyes, and once again, he was talking a lot of sense in the post-match presser. Villa weren’t doing what they’d talked about doing: getting in between their lines and not playing in front of them. Viewing the goals at halftime to “show how quickly we could create that overload.” Encouraged that we scored four despite not playing well.

Not too high, not too low. A constant level of expectation. Which is what most people thrive under.

Forest? Who knows. Well, I do know Lewis Grabban, who’s been on a good run. Villa ought to know him as well.

Aitor Karanka has been saying they’re very different than small heath, so one assumes we’ll see fewer muggings and more football. He’s also saying Forest are a different outfit than the one Smith managed against at Brentford earlier this season. But Villa are a different outfit than Brentford.

As of now, all I really care about is John McGinn’s status. Bolasie can probably do the start for Villa in place of Albert, but maybe Smith goes with Elmohamady. I don’t think that will happen, but…you never know. Main thing is, a midfield of McGinn, Grealish and Hourihane is a good and balanced one. I like Birkir, but McGinn’s tenacity means Hourihane isn’t a luxury and Birkir isn’t as necessary as I once held him to be. Which is good, since he just had groin surgery. Hourihane can keep things ticking over, provide set-piece quality and goals, and McGinn bridges the gap from front to back. Bottom line, McGinn’s the kind of all-action player that makes any midfield better. Well done, Steve Bruce. Excellent signing.

But I should also note that if Chester is still struggling…well, we have a bit of a depth problem at CB. I’m not really sure how that resolves itself, but at least Tuanzebe is starting to show that he’s a PL-quality player.

Anyway, at the moment, it’s all about Villa playing Villa’s game. Which, admittedly, is still uncharted territory. We know what we’re hearing, we know it’s not always happening the way it’s drawn up, and we know that it’s an important fixture following a very hard-fought one.

And as you know, I don’t do predictions. But I will say I’m looking forward to it.

Over to you.

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John Clark
John is co-owner of AVL, and has followed the Villa since the '70s. A journalist by trade, he is, by most accounts, a very nice person. You can follow me on Twitter @JClarkKohoutek. It's an astonishing experience. Or a complete waste of time.

Comments 161

  1. John Lerwill

    I’ll repeat my post at the bottom of the last thread:

    Ian: “Time to get your thinking straight and not revere those in charge regardless of their failure or success.”

    Oh, Ian, what do I say to that…

    I do not “revere” any person i.c. at Villa! That’s an OTT statement if ever there was one, if you don’t mind me saying. I’ve not said that about Bruce nor anyone else…

    This is only sport … I do not regard it as the be all and end all of life. It’s not to be taken *that* seriously in my view. If I am to watch it then I watch it because I want to enjoy it, not for any other reason – except that as Villa is in my DNA then Villa is always at the forefront of my sporting interests.

    There is only one entity that I “revere” … and I am not going into detail about that.

    Meanwhile, football managers are appointed by their clubs to do a job and we should get behind them as much as possible to maximise their effect. Simples.

    I always said that Bruce had his foibles and was not the ideal choice, but, hey, for me he didn’t do that badly and in the middle of personal trials, as well as the financial nonsense that went on over the summer. But he’s gone now and I accept that.

    I tend to agree also with JC about MON, though there were times when we had some fine entertainment during his time i.c. Memories of Barry and also Milner’s shooting and the enthusiastic defensive qualities of Laursen, Dunn and Collins will always stick with me as much as the time when we beat Man U 4-0 back in 1963 and in the 1957 and 1994 Cup Finals.

  2. John Lerwill

    Yes, JC, a good leader as usual and, indeed, another match to look forward to tonight but it looks as though we in the UK are not able to see it on the screen.

    BTW, out of courtesy or otherwise you didn’t mention Conor’s awful passing prior to Villa getting back into the game 1st half, to the extent that he got the ‘bird’ from fans. For the most part I thought Conor was really ‘off’ in that match though that’s not to say he didn’t work hard.

    Taking that into account, as well as Whelan’s not altogether effective presence, it’s a wonder Villa won as well as they did and also emphasises how much credit Albert deserves, as well as Alan ‘Stan Lynn’ Hutton.

  3. Paul Pears

    Wonderful leader JC,

    which seems most appropriate…..our wonderful Leader..JC….!!!

    It would seem that life here has started to grow again under your leadership….at the same time as Dean has brought about the renaissance on the pitch…

    I am glad that you picked up on the ugly, as it was good to watch the match back on Monday night in full, and relive it, but also to see Gardner’s face….”Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned”, and wasn’t he like the scorned woman as he leered into Jack’s face when he was trying to intimidate him.

    Still having your little digs JL, which I will let go, as there is no sense in giving you more to feed on. Leaving soon for Birmingham and looking forward to catching up with my nurses at Heartlands, who just happen to be long term season ticket holders at Villa Park, as well as being wonderful NHS staff. Then it will be checking in at the Premier before setting off for a few beers in the Tavern, then on to the temple in the Holte End for the match..!!

    Not sure who will be fit tonight, or who will be on the bench.. but in Deano we trust..!!

    So loving all the positivity coming back from the players, and how much togetherness there is, now they have a manager who believes in them, which is the way round that it should be. Positivity s one of the finest tools to have in your armoury…as was always the rule under the great Ron Saunders…… what opposition….we are the best… we will beat them…. Fergie’s rule too.

  4. Villalore

    Thanks JC for the wonderful write-up. These games are coming thick and fast, you probably should get some help with the pre and post reviews. Also, in reference to your previous post (and mine), it was definitely not a go at you or anyone in particular.

    Over to Forest and keeping Grabban quiet will be a challenge. The man marking for the first Blues goal was terrible, how could we lose Jutkiewicz so easily? Hopefully JT and DS have sorted that out. Bolasie starting could mean O’Hare might get a run out as a substitute. Bench is starting to look a little thin with all the injuries to our mid and lack of options for our defense.

  5. Mark King

    Cheers Jc – wheelan had a hand in both goals unfortunately he was marking the goal scorer and his pass put Tammy in trouble for the second and was guilty of ball watching as the cross came in rather than looking for the runners. Harsh maybe probs why he was pulled

  6. John Lerwill

    PP: “Still having your little digs JL, which I will let go, as there is no sense in giving you more to feed on. “

    No ‘digs’ at all, Paul. All I do is to respond to put straight your rather wonky views on the issues I make! 😀

    If you wish to ignore the advices I give that’s up to you. 🙂

  7. John Lerwill

    PP: “It would seem that life here has started to grow again under your leadership”

    And to take the above comment as an example, it really is a big exaggeration to say that.

    Not that JC doesn’t write some good stuff – he does – but the comment is still OTT, sorry to say.

    JC also said that there were good points about Bruce’s time – yet you make no comment about that post of his but at the same time are willing to clatter into me! I really wonder sometimes…

  9. Heroes-and-Villans

    jl

    I thought conor was better when in that quarter back role.

    Its a vital position for smith. I like conor and his set pieces is deadly but not good enough for that role.

    Im surprised mcguin not used there as a proper box to box cm but smith seems to like him as an 8.

    I hope elmo starts as he has really impressed when playing lately.

  10. John Clark

    Villalore,

    Thank you. Can’t recall you having a go at anyone or anything. All good!

    On the marking for their first, interesting that. Pretty much sums up what Smith was referring to about having a set-piece coach. Amazing how predictable so many set pieces are…throw in a wrinkle, and there you have their main goal threat gliding open without any trouble.

  11. Plug

    Final word from me on small heath. As PP noted, Gardener’s face was just evil. So pleased the result totally binned his week.

    OV, thanks for that link. It is going to prove quite useful.

    Forest will be a tougher proposition tonight than small heath but I expect our attacking strengths will get the 3 points. COYVB.

  13. Mark King

    JC- On the 1st goal wheelan is watching/tracking the goal scorer from 5-6 yards away then a Blues player being marked by Tuenzabe drags him over to wheelan and tangles maybe even holds the two players while the goal scorer nips around the back, definitely worked on but either wheelan should have been tighter or Tuenzabe passes his player on. By the time wheelan is loose he has no chance with his concrete wellies on.

  15. Mark King

    As for how to watch the match theres been some changes in games not being aired on the tv though it should be on sky with the red button found this on AVTV.

    “Video coverage of our match against Nottingham Forest on Wednesday night is available to all AVTV Live subscribers, including UK-based ones wishing to stream at home.

    The game is available to watch in the UK, Ireland and Channel Isles for fans not attending the game, for the price of £10.

    Selected fixtures outside the Saturday prime time schedule that are not chosen for broadcast by television companies can now be streamed to UK audiences this season.

    This means International Plus, regular international and UK subscribers can all view the match, while live audio coverage remains available to those wishing to listen in.”

  16. Mark King

    UK
    AVTV Live video coverage (£10)
    AVTV Live audio coverage
    Live on Sky Sports Red Button
    Extended YouTube highlights from 12pm on Thursday
    International
    AVTV Live video coverage for International Plus subscribers
    AVTV Live video coverage for regular international subscribers
    AVTV Live audio coverage for all international subscribers

  19. Mark King

    jc- its definitely a move by city to obstruct to allow a clear path to the back post, could easily been not given imo.

    Mcginn back in, wheelan benched, Bolasie starts, Ohare and doyle hayes on the bench

  20. Mark King

    Tonight’s starting XI: Nyland, Hutton, Chester, Tuanzebe, Taylor, Grealish, McGinn, Hourihane, Kodjia, Abraham, Bolasie. Great to see McGinn fit and Bolasie gets the start.

  71. Ian

    Lots of positives though. 2 down, 1 down, go ahead, and over 60% possession. Forest should be called lumberjacks—all the fouls chopping players down. I guess Villa are going to have to get used to it.

  72. Mark King

    JC- good luck with the write up.

    Ian- I don’t think he made a save all night but neither did theirs really, just one of those games I hope.I was wondering what would happen if we met a quick counter attacking side, now we know. Just goes to show this team has goals in it though 14 in 4 games. think Chester is struggling still and huttons got 5 yellows.

  78. DarrenO

    Value for money in terms of goals in that game and completely disproves my thoughts on a consistent back four being good enough, the quick counter-attack from Forest undid us time and again.

    Definitely action will be taken in Jan on the back four, but we never gave up in a game we only led once and had a few goals disallowed too.

    Onwards to the weekend.

  79. Plug

    Gutted we shelled 2 points after finally getting our noses in front against 10 men. Elated we scored 5 after going behind and with the all out attacking intent. Excitement at its best. Beats a 0-0 spectacle any day.

    There is still work to be done to prevent death from rapier quick counter attacks but I have every faith in the coaching staff to remedy matters. Bring on Boro, I’m up for it and I’m sure the team will be.

    We’re now the second highest scoring team in this division behind the yam yams. Shore up the defence and this season will be the real deal.

  80. Mark King

    I kind of expected a draw before the game with tiredness etc but not 5-5 🙂 Both teams looked shattered like they had been in a cup final. I am inclined to say they deserved a point but we put in 26 shots with 12 on goal, forest had 8 and 5. A save or two or some defending from the midfield and defence would not have hurt. Forest had kept 3 clean sheets previously though which just shows you how potent our attack can be.

    Iana – yes fouly it was, except we should of done a bit ourselves on carvalho who constantly ran through the midfield.

  83. James Gill

    Anyone thinks Hutton deserves a place in our team going forward take a look at 1st 3 goals he looking at back of forests player scoring same old same old Hutton,4th and 5th goal keeper horrendous, along with Taylor at left back ,Smith has some work to do to sort this out

  84. Mark King

    JG and JL- we knew this when Smith arrived, defence has been shocking pretty much all season, the only thing that has negated it has been the high press and possession of the ball. There really is no point in sitting back with this team as is.

    Right now I wish DS had Elphick, delaet, clark and steer to pick from. Our expected goals for the game was 3.2, forests was 1 against a top side.

    We are now in that dreaded run of fixtures I mentioned two months back. we are playing all the top sides and a lot of derbies and so far we haven’t lost. If we are to pick up draws then they are not the worst to do it against (but obviously wins preferable). I would be highly surprised if we don’t beat the lower clubs fairly comfortably. long way to go.

  87. Heroes-and-Villans

    forest are a decent team. wont play mant teams as good as them on the counter.

    They are also very tight defensively and was on a run of clean sheets! One of those games were you have to say a draw fair enough.

    Its not been a settled enough time for us to challenge top 2 but if we can stay in touch of the top 6 until jan and improve defense id fancy us to win the playoffs.

  90. Mark King

    Andrew- when you are relying on the midfield to prevent the counter with the high press you have to hope they are on their game, Mcginn not at his best and no adomah lessened our effectiveness at retrieving the ball. Forest countered by running the ball out, ordinarily you’d expect someone to get a foot in. I think maybe injury absence and fatigue took there toll.

    when Adomah is fit will Bolasie be switched left and Kodjia dropped? and will ElGhazi start to feature more as a sub? he’s hopeless at defending.

  93. Heroes-and-Villans

    yeah we seemed to stand off too much and not engage.

    I have to say el ghazis goal was class. the instant control with one foot killed the ball dead was lovely technic.

    we certainly have options in the wide areas! going forward is a dream!

  94. Mark King

    Andrew- the one thing we lack apart from maybe bolasie is Pace. I liked Joe lolley at Huddersfield and forest picked him up for £500k !!! 4 assist and a goal last night, skill and pace to burn.

  95. Heroes-and-Villans

    he is a villa fan too!

    I think the pace is getting a bit better now jedi and whelen don’t play in the same team!

    but yes in the middle of the park we could do with more pace.

    our passing needs to tighten up too. very sloppy and loose

  96. John Lerwill

    MK: “the one thing we lack apart from maybe bolasie is Pace.”

    Sorry, Doc Pace passed away 30 years ago. 🙁

    Ex-Villan who scourged our defence every time we played against ‘im.

  97. IanG

    It should be interesting how fit we are for Saturday after the last 2 hard games in 4 days, as Middlesborough have had an extra day’s rest.It’ll probably be Elmo replacing Hutton as he’s banned.
    Bree was injured last I heard, so we are very short of cover for the backline, & Chester seems to be carrying an injury, & maybe McGinn also.
    Hope DS can sort the defending out.

  98. John Lerwill

    Last night

    Forests’ last (5th) goal shouldn’t have happened … Tuanzebe seemed to hang off a bit and Nyland’s attempt to sat not too good.

    Mind, you all were pretty tired at that pint and all the credit for Grabban to sustain concentration. Should have stayed at Villa perhaps.

  99. IanG

    JG – Having seen the extended highlights after BBC WM, I’d agree with you about the goalkeeper, he had a terrible game, along with the entire back line, & Sam Johnson would have saved at least 2 of the goals, & even Steer would have done better.
    He doesn’t command the defence & is a bit light weight.
    Completely outpaced, & the midfield was non existent when they attacked with pace.
    We made it easier for them, although full credit to them, but boy do they break quickly, all the cohesion at the back went completely & the old full back failings were there for all to see, leaving the CB’s high & dry, but Forest are a good counter attacking team.

  101. John Clark

    Yeah, that last goal was really disappointing. Don’t know if Nyland was partly unsighted by Tuanzebe, who was being careful not to give away a penalty at that stage, I think.

    As I watched, I thought Axel had shepherded Grabban out wide pretty well, and it looked like the chance, for him anyway, had gone. I figured the danger was then a cutback pass to someone arriving. And then thinking about Nyland, given Tuanzebe’s positioning, he didn’t have to worry about Grabban going back across goal, and should’ve really cheated closer to the post.

    At the same, fine pinpoint finish by Grabban. Just reflexively put it the only place it could sneak in.

    On the fourth, Nyland seemed to get flat-footed by the swirl on the shot. What’s also disappointing there is that Lolley had such a clear shooting lane. I know he was out a bit, but our attackers weren’t getting those kinds of invitations to shoot.

  102. John Clark

    I think the point about fatigue is probably a factor. That was a frenetic end-to-end game, and with so many players up, it didn’t take much for the counters to find acres of space.

    I would think that Smith has a number of talking points, and amongst them would be a lack of discipline in seeing out the game at 5-4. That was the time for packing it in.

  104. Paul Pears

    Well you would not have wanted to be late for that one…!!!!

    What an absolutely crazy night, all created , as MK has said by a Villa fan from the Holte End, Joe Lolley, who produce passes that Lionel Messi would have been proud of, with not once the receiver having to do anything, as the ball was laid perfectly in the path of his run. Something I would love to see our players doing, instead of this still constant laying off to the wings.

    The lack of fitness clearly showed in McGinn and Chester, and I just wonder what is happening with Bree, as he has not featured since Dean’s arrival, although he has played a couple of games for the reserves, scoring twice in his last outing. I am concerned that we are obviously using Chester while he is carrying an injury.

    I feel that the game was lost at 5-4 when it looked as if Dean was bringing Elmo on, changed his mind, and then brought Whelan on. If Elmo had replaces Taylor and Hutton had swapped over, we may have held out better. Elmo came on, but too late, they had got the equalizer, and although we succeeded in getting the ball into the net a further couple of times, they were both disallowed, one for hands and the other for offside.

    It is really going to be a hard call to pick a fit team for Saturday capable of beating ‘Boro, but here’s hoping that our management team can do it.

    Lot’s of teams are going to be struggling with injuries and yellow cards over the coming weeks, and this is where the big squads will gain. Unfortunately, we now have one of the smallest due to all the stupid loan outs that were made.

    Time to go and watch the highlights over, and see what else I missed, just like poor Nyland……!!

  105. Mark King

    On the last goal, it may have clipped tuenzabe’s trailing leg and changed path, sure looks that way from the keepers positioning and the way Grabban strikes it, he doesn’t put his laces through it but does what most strikers would do go for the far post. Needs a view from behind the goal which we don’t have to be 100% certain. Still shouldn’t be beaten at the front post maybe but it explains his positioning, his hands come up in front of him not out which suggest he is reacting to the balls initial path.

  106. r0bb0

    Mark, you mentioned chemtrails. I’ve not been able to find any credible evidence for them existing. Even Greenpeace can find no evidence for them or need to even investigate them.

    There have indeed been scientific discussions for a number of years about cloud seeding or releasing reflective dust into the atmosphere but I can’t see any evidence that anybody is ‘surreptitiously’ testing it on a major scale.

  107. IanG

    Mark
    Must be my eyes, cos he seemed to me to have put it exactly where he intended.
    i think the goalie got it wrong, as he was expecting the far post effort but left a gap, which grabban clocked & did what he does.

  112. Paul Pears

    IanG,

    Yes Dean confirmed a lot of injuries during his press conference, including the Jedi, Thor, Davis, McGinn, Lansbury,Bree and Albert. Jedinak could be available soon, and McGinn was ok after the match, so he should be up to speed for Saturday.

    MK,

    Grabban’s goal goes through Tuanzebe’s legs and there is no deflection, just watched all the replays. Poor positioning again from Nyland.

  114. Mark King

    PP- so have I Paul driving me nuts as the resolutions not good enough 🙂 what made me look was Dean Smith mentioned he thought it deflected off Tuanzebe, as I said Nylands hands go up to his face not to his left, Grabban doesn’t even look at the goal until he’s hit the ball so precision shot? to add to it the shot goes through tuanzebes legs and you lose sight of it but at that instant Nyland is almost diving/leaning outwards like its going across goal and the ball looks like its heading at him, in the very next frame it appears to veer to the right. I guess unless Tuanzebe fesses up we won’t know and nor does it matter except to Nyland 🙂

  115. Mark King

    Robbo- I doubt they would tell us if they were doing it, especially surreptitiously, Its been a thing in the alt media for years and there has been a huge effort of late to shut them down on line. I have no idea either way just found it funny after years of denial.

  116. John Clark

    Funny thing is, was watching with my Forest mate. Before, being sporting chaps, we’d agreed a 3-3 draw would be good fun for all, no bad blood.

    Then it started happening, and I said, “This could end up 5-5!” Lo and behold.

  118. John Lerwill

    r0bb0,

    I once looked into this matter out of stimulated interest about 3 or 4 years ago, and came to the conclusion that it was occurring because of the evidence of so many people in California and other places.

    But I haven’t looked into it since. But what *was* that 4-engined plane flying over Birmingham in June/July time bellowing are lines of smoke trails? It looked very odd indeed. It was only by chance I looked up to see it … and it was only flying at about 10,000 feet.

    If chemtrails are taking place and the public is not supposed to know, I doubt that you would easily find scientific proof.

    There are a lot of surreptitious things going on, the main one probably being CERNE’s activity with its massive Collider. I like it not.

  123. Plug

    JL – Those ratings are not surprising are they? When you ship 5 goals at home the defence is going to be marked down.

    DS says we won’t be shipping 5 again but he can’t do much about personnel in that department until Jan. I’m expecting him to find some young and lean players from the lower leagues to add more pace at the back.

    Looking forward to seeing how we react against Boro. I think we’ll get something up there.

  124. John Clark

    From just watching the once, what I’d imagine Smith is thinking defensively is that we probably got too enthusiastic, and sucked up too much attacking. Based on his small heath comments, I would guess he’d want more balls played more quickly upfield, so that the overall shape doesn’t get imbalanced. Obviously just that, nothing more than a guess.

    Also seems like both Axel and Chester were either surprised, at sea, or both with the balls, and the quality of them, coming through. Probably also the speed.

  125. John Clark

    Also guessing that he’d be thinking about how attacks are ‘finished’…obviously better to have a ball go out for a goal kick on a shot versus bouncing straight back out, and for those that do come back, being more aware positionally that a counter would be on if the shot taken doesn’t reach the keeper or go out of play.

  126. John Lerwill

    Plug: “Those ratings are not surprising are they?”

    Well, yes, given that Alex has been beefed up lately then in that context it’s a surprise to me, emphasising I didn’t see the match.

    I only saw 11 mins of highlights. Was he that bad through the whole match? Not sure that he’s worth that score because we shipped 5. It looked more to me that we were beaten back by some smart football from the opponents.

  129. Mark King

    I thought the midfield were a little to gungho with less snap about them when retrieving the ball from forest, didn’t give the CB’s much hope with the FB’s pushed up too. should be less hectic V boro, they don’t concede many but don’t score many either. If they sit back and let us have the ball we will win I think, if they have go then anythings possible.

  131. r0bb0

    John, I read the Express article and watched the video. Was that supposed to be showing a whole series of the trails?
    If it was that commonplace, all over the world, just imagine the number of planes that would have to be adapted. How many would have to be loaded with whatever chemical it’s supposed to be. How many companies would be producing this chemical? How many tankers would be supplying it?
    How many labs and universities would have tried to detect whatever chemical it is?
    Don’t you think that one person . . . . somewhere in the world would have one piece of evidence to support the theory?
    As far as I can see there isn’t a single piece of evidence though.
    I’m struggling to see that this theory has legs

  132. Ian

    Those chemtrails are water vapour that crystallizes instantly in the minus 40C temperatures above 28,000 feet. Not that you would want to drink it.

    Of course you would be wary of Cerne. Remember how wary you were when people started to use automobiles instead of carts.

  133. John Lerwill

    Ian,

    No, there are certain trails not as you describe, including the one I saw over Birmingham and in Express photo.

    r0bb0

    How much evidence do you need? As Ian indicates, it’s certainly not all vapour trails but the one I actually saw and the main photo in the Express point to something quite different. They are are not trails formed by natural phenomena but something being pushed out deliberately – in the case of the one I personally saw it was flying at about 10,000 feet. And what was it doing pushing all that stuff out on a reasonably bright summer’s day? *And* over quite a big conurbation?

    Clive earlier mentioned the use of gases in Thailand in connection with stimulating rain I imagine, but the point is that there proves that the technology exists and is being used, albeit in Clive’s case you could say it’s for a ‘good’ use. Although I’m not sure as I suspect it’s only helping climate change.

    For my money there’s something going on but I can’t quite put a finger on it.

  134. John Lerwill

    Ian: “Of course you would be wary of Cerne. Remember how wary you were when people started to use automobiles instead of carts.”

    Let’s for a moment ask what good the CERN project does for the world and its occupants. The cost of it is mammoth while people starve and so-called civilisation encroaches on the territory of wildlife putting huge numbers into risk of loss.

    That’s just the commonsense question.

    But have you see pictures of atmospheric conditions that CERN has created.

    This is just one example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hxSPUAD8OE

    I do not see the point of CERN one bit. Many do not have the intelligence to drive a car properly so what will come out of this is anyone’s guess.

    As a matter if interest, CERN contains a statue of the dance of Shiva. But I know this is not how the dance of Shiva is to be understood.

  137. r0bb0

    JL. In my opinion, anyone who thinks that normal aircraft vapour trails are ‘chem trails’ deserves ridicule.
    The trail that you saw and the image you linked to ‘do’ look different, but my instinct would always be to look for a simple solution rather than a global conspiracy.
    For example, aircraft have a maximum landing weight. I’m just speculating here, but if the plane you saw had to turn back and land at Birmingham International before planned, it would be carrying a full fuel load and would be above its maximum landing weight. It would solve this by dumping fuel.
    I’m not saying this ‘is’ what you saw, I’m just saying that it is an alternative, explicable explanation.

  138. r0bb0

    As for CERN. It is a huge investment in pure science, to try and reveal more of the nature of matter. If through thisthey were able to harness fusion power for example, then they could solve climate change at a stroke.

  140. John Lerwill

    r0bb0,

    So I didn’t think of the possible explanation you gave, eh? 😉

    You are possibly right, but we live 10 minutes flying time from Brum airport and the plane – if anything – was flying away from the direction of the airport with no indication that it was ‘stacked’ and circling to make a landing and nor did it appear to have taken off from there.

    Believe me, I would not have told you about this if I hadn’t already thought through the possibilities.

    But it’s still possible you’re right, but if that was dumping fuel then there was a hell of a lot of it and from a fairly low height, which makes the health hazard extreme over a highly populated area.

    I think you’re getting the wrong impression of where I lie on this. I am not committed to thinking there is a “global conspiracy” either, but global conspiracies do occur (I know, I’ve been on the end of one!) so therefore it’s something I’m not going to discount.

  141. John Lerwill

    r0bb0: “As for CERN. It is a huge investment in pure science, to try and reveal more of the nature of matter. If through thisthey were able to harness fusion power for example, then they could solve climate change at a stroke.”

    Well, if you don’t mind me saying, that’s how the rational world views it, of course. But to me, man is trying to make sense of something through (1) huge expenditures that are clearly not being spent to obtain the results you suggest and (2) the nature of matter cannot be found by pure physical means. I’m afraid man is saying “my intellect can work it all out” when the intellect can only do so if properly trained spiritually.

    You may laugh at that, but I’ve seen and practised enough to know something about the workings of knowledge to be convinced by what I have said. You will probably disagree.

  142. John Lerwill

    MK: “makes me laugh to think that we think we can control the climate. Maybe we can find the light switch for the sun”

    This is one of those occasions where I completely agree with you!

  143. r0bb0

    JL. You’re right that our approaches to these questions are very different.
    I tend towards the view that all mysteries do have rational explanations and ‘can’ be worked out in time if you look in the right places, ask the right questions and apply rigour to your analysis.

    MK. I agree that we won’t ‘control’ the climate in our lifetimes, but we do know that our actions are starting to ‘affect’ it.

  144. r0bb0

    JL “ if you don’t mind me saying, that’s how the rational world views it, ”

    No offence taken at that. . . . I’m comfortable living in the ‘rational world’

  145. r0bb0

    We’re trying to obtain a grant to investigate a new plant growing medium made using farm waste and CO2 from flue gases. It will lock up a proportion of the CO2 that would have been released into the atmosphere and convert it into a useable material to aid plant growth.
    It won’t make a dramatic change to CO2 reductions but if we don’t all do the bits that we can then I worry about the future that we will leave for our children . . . never mind our grandchildren!

  146. Mark King

    Robbo- without even looking for research I came up with several possibilities in my own noggin of which the greenhouse gas theory’s is just one.

    9 billion people cooking and heating and watching tv etc generates heat for one, the suns unknown effect on the earths core, the universes effects on the sun and earth, earths magnetic field fluctuations and weakening and solar winds.

    Did some digging and came across one study that even the tiny fluctuations of the earths rotation effect climate.

    It’s to complex to point at one thing but it sure can make money.

  148. r0bb0

    Mark, you’re right that both weather and climate are influenced by numerous factors.
    The evidence that the concentration of certain gases, including CO2 in the atmosphere is rising is irrefutable.
    The fact that global temperatures are rising is also irrefutable.
    It’s harder to ‘prove’ causation, but the overwhelming view of the scientific community is that the two are linked.

  149. r0bb0

    Sea level rises are also irrefutable.
    If the scientists do turn out to be right and ‘greenhouse gas’ emissions are indeed the cause of rising temperatures and sea levels, then current increases in these gases will create even more significant changes in the future.

    The best evidence we have is that the scientists are indeed right. . . . . it’s one hell of a gamble to assume that they’re not.

  150. r0bb0

    Haha sorry Clive!

    Yes we’re playing today and it’s televised.

    I am slightly more optimistic about Villa than I am about climate change

  151. Clive Evans

    rObbO – I was confused for a moment! I am watching Sheffield United v Leeds and the referee is having a ‘mare’ – some diabolical cards and some missed cards – the half-time discussion is mainly about him rather than the football. His name Oliver Langford – cringe is he refs one of our games

  152. John Lerwill

    r0bb0: “I tend towards the view that all mysteries do have rational explanations and ‘can’ be worked out in time “

    You’re entitled to that view, but I hope that you will come to see differently! 🙂

  156. Mark King

    Clive- he’s sneaked under the radar hasn’t he maybe Chester is worse than we think and requires a rest or op? collins has a 5 week deal maybe to prove himself and maybe to get us to jan and new recruits. Says to me promotion is very much the drive despite the changing ethos at Villa.

  157. Mark King

    Robbo- It would not surprise me if Global warming is being used as a way to prolong or boost productivity( amongst other agenda’s) similar to tech from the wars and the space race did.

    As we are in a recession (remember that?)that were told we are not due to come out of until 2025 then we have to pay the rent. What better way to make people spend than fear? we live in the throwaway age and upgrading by outlawing your technology is a sound strategy. Carbon taxes a nice money maker and of course new technology to produce energy and forcing new regs on builders keeps the ball rolling. Cynical view I know but what if they are very wrong and know it?

  158. IanG

    Clive
    Ha ha ha
    Let’s hope the game lives up to the joke.

    Mark
    ‘Cynical view I know but what if they are very wrong and know it?’
    The question should be, ‘do they really care?’

    JL
    Rational thought eh, good old chestnut that one.
    First find your chestnut is what I say.
    Pin it down, go on, you know you exist to do so, etc.
    Partial views are the most dangerous things, who’s to say that colour is not really a shared illusion & everything is actually black & white.
    Mind is so much more than that

  159. IanG

    Team news:
    Nyland; Elmohamady, Tuanzebe, Chester, Taylor; McGinn, Hourihane, Grealish, El Ghazi, Bolasie; Abraham

    Subs: Bunn, Revan, Jedinak, Whelan, Kodjia, O’Hare, Hogan

    Is Revan an under 18?

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