Fred Rinder had passed away at Christmas, 1938, and with he gone, and Hogan’s successful period at Villa coming to an end with world war arriving in 1939 (actually it is reputed that he was sacked as he lay in hospital with appendicitis just after the start of the war), the Villa board appear to have reverted to type. After WW2, Villa did not re-appoint Hogan (but had to pay him a substantial sum in compensation), showed little tendency to developing via the traditional ‘Villa Way’, and reverted to the ‘stopper’ centre-half, though, in fairness, this by then was the accepted trend in British football. Herbert Chapman’s methods had by then taken firm root at the FA’s coaching schools.

The end of WW2 brought the fans back to Villa Park in huge numbers, but they did not realise that this was effectively the start of a new and lesser phase in Villa’s history. The inspirational names of Devey, Spencer, Johnstone and Hodgetts (as well as Rinder, and, earlier, Ramsay) – to name a few – had all gone by the end of WW2. These people had been the main thrust in the club’s first 50 years and their departure from the Villa scene took away a significant element of drive towards maintaining and developing Villa’s achievements. The new board lived in the shadow of past greats. Eric Houghton had this to say, in 1970: “The various [Villa] Boards have always been autocratic and the directors of the last 10 or 20 years have tried to emulate their predecessors [in that regard]. Unfortunately, they have lacked their [forbears’] experience and administrative abilities.”

Villa’s pre-war star midfielder Alex Massie – appointed Villa’s manager at the end of WW2 – quietly resigned in 1949, but he was such a gentleman that he never gave a full story of why, but the press were confident that it was because the Board would not give enough scope to any team manager. But Massie, being a ball-playing midfielder himself, tried to apply a lot of what he had learned under Hogan and (according to the star striker of the time, Trevor Ford) there would be well-organised training and specialised coaching and a finish to the day of a round of golf. That was in stark contrast to the dull training schedules at quite a few other clubs.

After Massie went, the Board again took control of team affairs – for nearly 18 months. Villa, under their old trainer Hubert Bourne, reverted to training techniques they used before Hogan appeared, as though he had never been at Villa. There was a general belief then that a footballer ‘had it in him or didn’t’ – the players didn’t need a football coach, they said. George Martin at last came in from Newcastle and proved to be a reasonably competent manager, but he also got fed up and went after less than three years.

Despite that wonderful period with Hogan, the immediate post-War Villa Board demonstrated exactly how supine they could be by mostly going along with what other clubs were doing – except the go-ahead clubs of that time, like Manchester United and the Wolves, who worked from a youth base. Not since before the War was there anyone on the Board with much foresight. And the only first-hand knowledge of football on the Board lay with Chris Buckley. Once a highly-regarded Villa player, Buckley, after winning a championship medal 40 years before, had gone to war against Villa on a personal issue and was dropped from the team and then transferred for his pains. He was (by some means or other – he did not finish playing until 1921) elected to the Board in 1936, and became chairman in 1955. But Chris Buckley had acquired money throughout his working life, mainly out of farming and business. He seems to have lived the life of lord of the manor in later years (living in a country mansion I understand), and came across as a gentleman.

The other post-war Board members were Norman Smith (he worked for the Birmingham Council’s Education Department, and played a big part in Birmingham youth clubs development), who replaced Buckley as chairman in 1965, and a small number of local business people whose football credentials were ‘not a lot’. They were basically keen Villa fans who wanted to help – and, probably (though I am sad to say this), also enjoyed the status. By the ’60s, all the Board members were elderly as well. So the Villa Board of the 1940s, 50s and 60s did not have a lot of ‘cred’ about it football-wise, and Buckley’s life (I imagine) was rarely under pressure, especially as communications with the media were kept at a minimum. The Sports Argus had a ‘go’ at Villa from time-to-time, but clearly the club was not taking notice. Even the Shareholders’ Association usually lacked bite to put their points across at the AGMs, and sad financial stories from the Board caused them to even fork out for some heavy expenditures such as Villa Park’s first floodlights (1958)!

When one thinks back to the six or seven boom years of football following the War, when Villa’s attendances were regularly between 50 and 70 thousand, and players were still on fixed wages, I find it very difficult to work out just how the club could have got into any financial pressure. However, in about three or four of the seasons between 1948 and 1956, Villa came perilously close to relegation, and only in the emergency buying of what turned out to be good players did Villa survive. But to illustrate the strange thinking of the Board, the one young player that had been brought through the ranks since 1945 and had become an England international (wing-half Eddie Lowe), was sold in 1950 with claims that he had not performed his defensive duties sufficiently well. The following year (just after the arrival of Martin) Villa spent a goodly sum for those days on young wing-half Danny Blanchflower, who, like Lowe, did not perform his defensive duties too well! Though the signing of Blanchflower was a coup, the manner of how it was done could be said to be perverse. What was perhaps worse was the fact the club did not have the wherewithal to develop the club in order for young stars like Blanchflower (and Tommy Thompson) to want to stay. These players had come from outside – they were not imbued with club loyalty. They didn’t stay, they went; and when they did the outcome was yet another relegation fight.

Blanchflower arrived after Villa had dismantled the Hogan/Massie style of coaching and training, so one of the criticisms that the great half-back Danny Blanchflower later laid at the Villa’s door was that in training there was little or no involvement with the ball; the pretext then being that the players would be hungrier for it by the time matchday came around. In fact this was still a common training outlook in Britain at that time.

Blanchflower was also somewhat critical about a senior pro and a valued player at Villa (who just happened to be a cousin of mine): Frank Moss, Jnr. Frank was a tough centre-half (and deeply respected by opposing centre-forwards of the ilk of Tommy Lawton and (later) Trevor Ford) who was frequently heard to make scathing remarks to colleagues on the pitch, including young players trying to make their mark. It would seem a youngster had to develop a very thick skin in that kind of company, but not all of them could do that.

Blanchflower was not alone in his observations. Others privately thought the same thing, including Villa stalwarts like Alex Massie and Dickie Dorsett (as they admitted in later years), and Peter McParland described the slackness of training. “Friday was known as two-lap day” (he wrote) when some players would not bother to change their clothing. “They would just pull a sweater over their shirts, often leaving their ties on.” Some players did not join in the running until right at the end, joining the runners as they passed the players’ tunnel. And (with poor supervision during training sessions) there were other tricks employed to avoid the strain of training.

To replace George Martin, old Villan Eric Houghton arrived from Notts County in September, 1953. By then it would seem that no-one other than a die-hard claret and blue man would take the managerial post. He had an opportunity to bring Jimmy Hogan back into the fold and quickly did so, to look after youth development. I rather suspect that Houghton would have made Hogan his number two, but the Board had probably stipulated that Hogan was not to be involved in first-team affairs: they were probably cautious that Hogan might upset the old pros like Frank Moss, and there were a good many of those still on Villa’s books. In fact, the Villa team of that time could have been nicknamed ‘The Pensioners’, for quite a few were at the point of retirement.

By the end of that season, youngsters were already making their mark in the first team. West Bromwich Albion – who finished that season as league runners-up and also Cup Winners – were thrashed 6-1 at Villa Park by Villa’s young forwards. High-fliers Burnley were also clobbered 5-1. McParland was one of those young forwards that shone, but another star was younger – 17 year-old Ken (K.O.) Roberts, whose career was so sadly halted by injury three years later. He would have been a brilliant player. I saw him once, playing a fine match as a number 10 in helping to beat our Small Heath neighbours, 3-1. That was a match when Stan the Wham scored one of his blistering goals. I can picture now the short corner taken by Les Smith to the edge of the penalty area as Stan galloped through to catch the ball so sweetly. Keeper Merrick was as flummoxed then as he so clearly was at Wembley against those Hogan-inspired Hungarians in 1953.

Roberts was followed by 16-year-old striker Walter Hazelden who still holds the record as being Villa’s youngest-ever player to start a top-flight game, in 1957, and scored. That year is certainly a famous one for Villa! Shame that it’s 60 years since Villa won the FA Cup.

The FA Youth Cup was instigated in 1952 and became a competition ruled mainly by three clubs – Manchester United, Wolves and Chelsea. Villa also entered the competition and eventually, in 1959-60, a fine youth team appeared that included the soon-to-be first-teamers Alan Deakin, John Sleeuwenhoek and Alan Baker, and several others – like Jimmy McMorran – that got to the first team in Joe Mercer’s time (as part of “Mercer’s Minors”) but did not sustain their promise. This team reached the FA Youth Quarter-Finals, when they were finally defeated by Chelsea (some say it was a goalkeeping error that swung the match) whose team included later famous names like Terry Venables, Peter Bonetti and Bobby Tambling. In that Cup run, Villa had beaten Wolves 5-1 playing Hogan-style football (of course). Wolves’ youth teams were at that time regarded as being of the best, so that was a great win on paper, and as I was there I can assure you it was! Young Villa’s slide-rule passing was a joy to watch.

Other youngsters that came through the youth ranks and who made a solid impact in the Villa first-team around that time were Mike Tindall, Charlie Aitken and Harry Burrows, and then, soon after, came Michael Wright, Keith Bradley, Lew Chatterley and Bobby Park. And George Graham, of whom more will be said later.

When the club was slipping badly towards the end of the 60s, Buckley quietly resigned as chairman and then equally quietly left the Board in the Autumn of the disastrous 1966-67 season, leaving the club to its fate and to a replacement chairman who was not up to the job of overseeing a supposedly big club. One wonders about Buckley, the affable gentleman on the surface but a man who, after Villa won the FA Cup in 1957, failed to honour a gentleman’s agreement between Normansell (the chairman who died in 1955) and Eric Houghton. Eric (as claret and blue as you could wish, and capable) certainly suffered in Buckley’s time. Apart from Hogan, Houghton had also brought in a tough first-team fitness coach in Bill Moore, whose methods substantially helped the Villa to lift the Cup in ’57. But the supine approach of the Villa Board saw them engineer the departure of Moore, Houghton and then Hogan all in the space of 18 months, despite the FA Cup win after 37 years of drought in the trophy-winning department, and the success of the youth policy. Other sad events occurred during the 1960s that were damaging to the club.

And so did Houghton’s successor, Joe Mercer, suffer. He was sacked in 1964 when on his sickbed through overwork and overly pressured by the Board’s austerity policies. Mercer was a shattered man, but after his recovery and the regaining of his confidence, Mercer went on to guide Manchester City to promotion, the league championship and other major successes. If the Villa Board had done their proper job, perhaps Villa fans might have witnessed the likes of Colin Bell and Franny Lee under Mercer’s stewardship at Villa Park instead of at Maine Road. Mercer – who always tried to lend a smile to football – also became caretaker manager of the England team and during his fairly short sojourn in that role we saw an England team that came to know how to entertain. Mercer (who gained himself an OBE in 1976 for services to football) was, in fact, an old and fine international himself, and had even worked with Hogan just after the War.

Danny Blanchflower had made his views shout loud and clear in the 1960-61 season as his Spurs carried off both League and FA Cup titles in wonderful style (the first ‘Double’ since Villa’s, in 1897), leaving Villa some crumbs by winning the first peace-time League Cup competition in the same season. But Spurs and most other big clubs ignored the League Cup for a few years as they regarded it as second-rate and a heavy interference on their playing schedule.

Events and developments in football over the preceding ten years proved that Villa Board had not a clue about the modern game, and yet it had been Jimmy Hogan that had significantly helped to change the game. By the late 1950s, formations other than W-M had begun to take over (particularly 4-2-4), football kit had been transformed into lightweight mode, and then there was the significant event of 1961 when the maximum wage was removed. The ageing Villa Board appear not to have known how to cope with all this; indeed, the removal of the maximum wage was opposed by Villa in stark contrast to the views of Fred Rinder 50 years before.

In 1962 the Villa Board switched off the youth policy as one of their money-saving schemes to help pay for the higher wages. A bit later, Villa even gave up their training ground. It took nearly 10 years and another revolution in the Boardroom at Villa Park for youth to again be given priority, and a new training ground (Bodymoor Heath) to be built. There was one season in the mid-60s when Villa made a fairly substantial profit but decided not to spend it (at a time when they needed to!) and let the taxman have that money instead! The complacency of the Board at this time was extraordinary; they just could not see the cliff edge approaching.

Aston Villa, by the mid-1960s, had become a pitiful sight in the world of football, emphasised perhaps by the fact that even then, their historical statistical record was still better than any other club. Two or three years later, Villa were relegated for the second time in their history. In 1966 there had been world class footballers paraded at Villa Park in the World Cup tournament of that year: and Villa had managed to upgrade the Witton Lane stand only because of funds provided by the FA for that purpose. Within months the Villa fans could only look forward to second and third-class faire. The Villa lion had died, replaced by a kitten.

These days many still think of Doug Ellis as being the specific rogue that stopped Villa’s progress. However, I somehow think that Ellis’s intentions and ambitions – and his chairmanship ability – were somewhat greater than the aforementioned chairman. But for previous mismanagement at the club, Doug Ellis would probably have never seen Villa Park. As Buckley’s time was 50 years ago and more, few remember that time or were too young to know and understand what was going on within the club at a time when the media was restricted. I hope that certain Ellis antagonists come to read this article and hope it helps them to put the past into more reasonable perspective.

Both of Hogan’s spells at Villa prompted a much-improved upturn in fortune for a short time and, although his purist methods were not always embraced, were the only times he enjoyed the same kind of respect in England as he had done across Europe. Much of the resistance to his forward-thinking ways was the previously described view that experienced players did not need coaching and his hands-on style was in contrast to the conventional (more removed) approach of most managers, as was his emphasis on skill and intelligent passing rather than wasteful use of long balls. Even his views on nutrition and sensible diets were cutting edge, but would not be fully digested on these shores until many years later, though great players like Stan Matthews and Tom Finney, and former Villa skippers Ivor Powell (who was still a practising football coach at the age of 93 in 2007!) and Johnny Dixon, were following that doctrine very early on.

Peter McParland was one of a group of young Villa players Hogan took along to observe Hungary handing out a footballing lesson to England at Wembley back in the Autumn of 1953. That group trip to see the match was unofficially organised by Hogan, and the coach made a lasting impression on the Ulsterman. McParland claimed Hogan was “Way ahead of his time” and revealed that even in his seventies the Lancashire-born trailblazer would be on the practice pitches demonstrating what he expected from players. “Even at that age he could do anything with the ball except make it talk,” he recalled. Hogan himself said that he would never ask a player to do anything that he couldn’t do himself.

The result of that England/Hungary match totally vindicated Hogan’s philosophy, and the Hungarians of 1953 were quick to praise Hogan for his pre-war contribution to their nation’s football development. And it was no fluke either; the next year Hungary won 7-1 on their home turf, and it was a surprise that they only finished as losing finalists in the World Cup of 1954.

Mat Kendrick (in a Birmingham Mail article on Hogan) reported on that McParland hindsight, and also referred to Ron Atkinson, a Villa trainee in the 50s, who regarded Hogan among the biggest influences on him, saying: “When Jimmy came he was revolutionary. He’d have you in the bit of the old car park at the back of Villa Park and say ‘I want you to play it with the inside of your right foot, outside of your right foot, now turn, come back on your left foot, inside outside’. Then he’d get you doing stepovers and little turns and twists on the ball. Everything you did was to make you comfortable with the ball.” That witness account may well explain why many regard Atkinson’s period as Villa manager as being one of the most exciting in the club’s recent history. However, Big Ron also said that in the Central League the ideals espoused by Hogan were not entirely appropriate according to the reserve team trainer, Phil Hunt, who would say to Ron (who never made the first team): “Forget what tip-taps tells you, let’s have some altitude [high balls]”.

But Atkinson was adamant that many of the developments in the game of recent decades can be seen to have originated with Hogan.

Tommy Docherty was another that received the benefit of Hogan’s coaching, as a youngster at Celtic in the late 1940s, calling Hogan “The finest coach the world had ever known”. It is written that the majority of the Celtic players, especially the more senior players, viewed Hogan’s appointment with extreme scepticism and, at times, mocked his methods. Hogan, ever the gentleman, persevered. It became obvious during his short stay at Celtic that he commanded a lot of respect from the younger players there. Docherty told BBC Sport: “He used to say football was like a Viennese waltz, a rhapsody. One-two-three, one-two-three, pass-move-pass, pass-move-pass. We were sat there, glued to our seats, because we were so keen to learn. His arrival at Celtic Park was the best thing that ever happened to me.”

Docherty himself went on to produce a fine young side at Chelsea in the 1960s that included a young Villa cast-off who quickly became a star there and then at Arsenal after his move from Villa Park: George Graham. We know of Docherty and his time at Aston Villa, but at least he brought Bruce Rioch to the Villa, and one of his former charges at Chelsea, ‘Chico’ Hamilton. He also reinstalled a youth policy at Villa.

The myopia surrounding George Graham’s exit can be easily explained by the fact that after the second and last departure of Hogan from Villa in 1959, and the earlier sacking of his disciple, the very modest but highly capable manager Eric Houghton, Villa closed down their interest in developing youth (as stated earlier). And Villa again reverted to coaches of the older school who appeared to be cautious about applying Hogan’s methods. We thus hear from Brian Little how he was expected (in the mid-1970s) to carry a team-mate piggy-back style up a hill as part of his training, but he (Little) could never see how that related to being a better footballer, apart from the fact it did his back no good at all. Similarly, Martin Keown also once stated that when at Villa he was expected to run up and down the Villa Park terracing, carrying a load. It would seem that Keown (in general) did not think much of Villa’s training methods in the mid-1980s.

Perhaps it was the eventual removal of the terraces that ultimately stopped that form of training!

(c) 2017, by John Lerwill.

Next time: Part 3, The Ellis Era.

Comments 19

  1. Hello, John.
    You’ve certainly been busy. Thanks for sharing with us.
    “We thus hear from Brian Little how he was expected (in the mid-1970s) to carry a team-mate piggy-back style up a hill as part of his training, but he (Little) could never see how that related to being a better footballer, apart from the fact it did his back no good at all.”
    I suspect many of the “older school” were influenced by military service. I guess piggy-backing would make one fitter, but I do see Brian’s point of view.
    I remember my old U21 navy rugby coach, Buck Shelford, would tell us we should be fit by the time training starts so training could be used for honing skills and team work. Buck eventually went on to captain the All Blacks. I also remember learning scuba diving CMAS style in the early 80s, where we were expected to swim underwater for the length of a 50 metre pool without surfacing or any gear. I could barely do it, and many couldn’t. I thought what was the point of that? we’re supposed to be using scuba. I was told that a lot of post war instructors were macho military types. That said, about six years later my regulator failed (jammed open) at 100 feet. There was no panic, I knew from training and practise exactly what to do. I think that’s a bit like coaches teaching football players how to be comfortable on the ball. And I’m sure Buck Shelford was right to claim, players should already be fit when they turn up for training. Training should be more about skills and team work. It’s shameful when a highly paid professional turns up very unfit to training then constantly gets injured because he’s probably having to work beyond what his unfit mind and body can handle.

  2. Iana,

    Good comment!

    Yes, I think Brian Little was not exactly built for heavy work and so possibly he suffered more than others. But it’s interesting that Martin Keown voiced the same observation and that after more than 20 years as a professional and an international at that. And who could have been more tough a player than Keown? I’d struggle to think of another, apart from George Curtis!

  3. JL
    Thanks for the article.
    You are right in that most fans of that time didn’t know much of what was going on, as not only did the villa board not communicate, as you say, but the B,ham Mail & Argos were very establishment & authority minded in those days, & as I said in a recent post the 50’s up until the early 60’s were infected by the military mind as so many people had been in the forces, & we grew up with army type PT as the only fitness training.
    Also the class system was still alive & well. & the business class was in full flow of running down our industry at the time, either to get some money after the hard times of the 30’s, the war era & the first 10 years after the war [rationing didn’t finish until 1953] or often through tired incompetence.
    The crowds at VP in the 50’s were an experience that has unfortunately been sanitised.
    You never forget tasting something for the first time after the shortages, things that are taken for granted or looked down on now, which contributed to people not taking so much for granted.
    The kids made total pigs of themselves when many sweets were available again, which led to my generation having so many dental issues [along with the sadist & charlatan dentists – we didn’t even get anaesthetic but they got rich].

  4. IanG,

    You and I come from roughly the same time – I saw my first Villa match about 1950-52 time as a boy.

    Yes, the newspapers of that time were more stilted as you say, but the sports papers (particularly the Sports Argus) were fairly strong in commenting on the Villa. I have a lot of articles from the very early 50s (onwards) that reflect that. The Argus particularly condemned the Board for not taking the youth policy earlier and also gave Villa plenty of warning that too many old players existed at Villa and that they would all retire at roughly the same time. Which they did.

  5. JL
    Thanks Uncle John
    Well I was only 2 in 1950, so the Sports Argos was beyond me at that date.
    To be honest I couldn’t afford an Argos until I was 12 & left the orphanage as we didn’t get much pocket money & were always worked free for our bowl of gruel [literally].
    By 1956 the terraces were into moaning, but I only attended on my own so I was too busy being mindblown with the immediate reaction of 50,000 people in a confined space.

  6. JL
    I always walked there & back from the Chester Rd/Orphanage Rd & spent the fare on getting into the ground on the occasions I was let out.
    We weren’t adventurous as we had no choice, which was the flavour of the times for many.

  7. IanG: “Well I was only 2 in 1950, so the Sports Argos was beyond me at that date.”

    It was for me, too! 😉 But don’t forget I’ve done a huge amount of research on Villa over the last 10+ years, including catchup on what I didn’t see or understand when I was young.

    I am very interested in your life experience. I feel a bit guilty that my life – in contrast – has mostly known freedom, not restriction as you experienced.

  8. JL,
    I enjoyed your write up very much and it provided an intesting insight. Again its very reminiscent of the Bill Shankley article I read a couple of weeks ago, and referred to. Bill Shankley only bought skillfull players, (obviously) but then worked on their skills and reactions.
    But its like they say, the only time success comes before work is in the dictionary !

  9. JL
    You don’t see it as restriction at the time just different, especially when you’re young.
    These kind of situations which in different forms continue to this day, affect the people concerned more as they get older, as the shared understanding has a glitch in it.
    Then if you survive life you have to process it as you get older or become a victim of it.
    It does however leave an experience of difference that stays with the person, even if it is only subjective, which can be a huge advantage in some ways [or a disaster], & can colour & sometimes overpower the sense of perspective, or illuminate.
    There were parallels with the old working class scenarios from way back up until the 80’s.
    In the UK until just after the war, we had the workhouse [nasty as it was] as a supposed safety net, but strangely in the USA there never has been such a general last resort [unless you count hoboing], & the current Trump health care fiasco illustrates that vividly.
    It is creeping backward here in the UK also, as the americanisation of the globe continues.
    The power of the people should never be underestimated or surrendered, which has just sunk the ACA replacement Act in the USA die to people having a voice.
    The negative side of this you can see in the Trump rallies [& the Brexit one], & the diehards, & the positive can be seen in how many people of all persuasions came together to oppose the Act as it harmed the majority.
    We have the same problem here with the NHS, without the coming together.

    Here’s a clip from Bill Mayer which is to me hilarious.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/bill-maher-says-president-trump-184200198.html

    Bait & switch is what was going on under Lerner for years.

  10. Archie
    ‘the only time success comes before work is in the dictionary’
    Very droll mate, have a drink on me but you’ll have to trust me.

  11. IanG,

    Yes, true that you don’t see the big picture when you’re young, and whether you are restricted or given freedom the problem is still the same – you only see life only from your standpoint (and work from that view) until you do what you say: “you have to process it as you get older or become a victim of it”.

    The problem here is, how do you know when you’re clear of the problem and see ‘it’ from the best possible angle? To get to the point when you stop hurting people would probably be the relevant point.

    As to the NHS – that’s a topic that is really a “bait and switch” issue. I think we seem to be all hooked to the notion that the NHS must be enabled to respond to everyone’s needs when required, but there is a part (not total!) solution. And that is prevention rather than cure.

    For so long we have been hooked up to what the corporations want us to buy – be it fags, alcohol or chocolate or big cars … or whatever … – when we don’t need it! What’s worse it can all destroy us, but not before the medics spend their lives and resources trying to reduce the impact.

    And then the drug companies tell us they’ve found a cure for cancer or whatever the disease is … again at great cost both in terms of research and purchasing the cost of the cure.

    The list goes on… We are utterly sold on the idea of what is *not* good for us to sell us the idea that we are helping ourselves and society to improve by being part of that system and killing ourselves to pay the bills.

    We then seek a Brexit or a Trump to get us out of the mess that we think “they” have created when in reality the problem – and the solution – lies with us and how we live our own lives, and how we vote. Instead of voting for sustainability, we vote for the status quo.

  12. JL- very true John, people want all these things but they don’t want responsibility for their own health or circumstance and neither do the governments want you to have it, nothing to bargain with if we are all fit and healthy and less afraid and much more difficult to control.

    I find it incredible that people demand there rights to healthcare while destroying their health every day, I think these days most people do not know what its like to feel healthy so they seek highs when they can and spend the rest in a poor state. We now have a world where more live extended lives but spend more of their lives in quasi-well state. Nature knows best and these days the weak really do thrive and reproduce and that can only end one way, with sicker weaker people.

  13. JL/MK
    The NHS situation is much deeper, a sum of it’s parts.
    What you both say would be bad enough but understandable to most people if there was not so many agendas & manipulation going on underneath.
    The idealogical agendas starting with Blair & culminating in the current horror show is where the root of the problem is, that is exacerbating every part or aspect of the ongoing reality of the NHS, trying to pit one interest group against another when it suits the agenda.
    The idealogical push underlying all of it is the privatisation of the NHS, from one side of it to bring money in & so called efficiency savings, & the push to overbalance the entity so that a small minority of people can make a lot of money out of it, & as in the US repeal bill it disenfranchises the poor, elderly & other unfortunates, amongst others.
    And all these traditional scapegoats designed to distract from the underlying activity of a small elite reaping it in, are not the end, just the means.
    It is worth pointing out that only those who have private insurance are immune to this, for now, although the next stage would be to shrink that pool even further, when the rates go up.
    The current outsourcing is earning many companies fortunes out of the budget that does not go into the NHS, & contrary to the propaganda in the establishment press, it is not more efficient, any more than outsourcing personel instead of training them.
    This is an idealogical driven scenario not needs driven.
    Of course the fingers are pointed in the scapegoat game to distract the gullible or the greedy by the majority right wing establishment media, which is owned by mostly foreign multi billionaires & their international corporations
    There are currently I think 20 american companies making millions profit.
    Internally in the NHS, the biggest problem is the management, which is swollen beyond understanding, which is an enormous waste of resources, & puts enormous strains on the people who actually are the NHS, the people without whom it wouldn’t be a hospital.
    The idealogical reorganisation of the NHS has made some groups rich & others, usually the front line, at the end of their capability, which is impacting dramatically on the patients also.
    The lack of joined up thinking has stopped most preventative medicine, & the current model is to treat exponentially ever increasing mostly emergencies only, or avoidable health problems, which is THE most expensive way of running the NHS, & is leading to the collapse of the NHS, while blaming everyone but them.
    This is exactly the same means used when they privatised BR [in a different situation], where they ran it down & sold it to each other.
    This is a giant deliberate con job where the immediate casualties are those more unfortunate than ourselves, although the elderly & disabled have been put to the sword already with non existent care which shortens lives & adds enormous cost to the NHS & councils.
    Mark, these people cannot nip down the healthfood shop or go to yoga so they feel better,as often they haven’t got the means due to an imposed viscious circle, which is inhumane.
    My life has already been shortened & the quality lessened physically, & if I hadn’t got a view which supports the positive, I would be in the sh*t.
    Unfortunately many people in worse states than me & of all ages are not in a position to help themselves.
    It is not helpful to point fingers at people’s differing capabilities, & it is much more useful to remember that change is inherent, & to see them as another me, then you get the perspective that helps view the suffering without isolating oneself, & then we may come together to stop this raping & pillaging of our children’s birthright.
    This is what drives the front line staff on the verge of collapse, & as you JK, I am a glass half full person, & an optimist that hopes people will come together to say, ‘no more’.

  14. IanG – The problem lies is education, I would never advocate abandoning the vulnerable, we have all been sold he dream while having our real birthright removed through false information. The world we live in is a human factory no more no less. For instance the best tool against cancer stem cells? high dose intravenous Vit c, out performs cancer drugs x10 cheap and not to be seen anywhere in the NHS soon.

    Lets be honest, world population growth not the best thing for the planet. We are humanity whether that is 9 billion or 1 million, I’m sure if other species had our conscious they’d feel the same and act the same. Its time to get real about how special we are.

  15. Mark
    Not very special mostly mate.
    On the other hand, didn’t a Bowie song say we are made of stardust>
    That should do for those that need it.
    For me, our potential is not separate from the here & now.
    And I’m a villa supporter

  16. MK
    I think one of the great ones said that the root of all confusion is ignorance,
    And I was one of the first of the working class kids to be allowed into a Grammar school to get a proper education [in Aston strangely enough] after the war.
    Biggest mistake they ever made as we also self educated as we were never really accepted.
    I think as JL as said, it is an inner education that is needed, but you have to put the effort in, otherwise people are no more than brainy animals a lot of the time.
    But the humanity pops out know & again

  17. ******************************************************

    Management And Coaching At Aston Villa. Part Three: The Ellis Era

    now up.

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