And, lastly, here’s a transcript of an article by one of Villa’s fine foot-soldiers of the 1920s, Arthur Dorrell, Villa’s left-winger and son of a former Villa player of the 1890s. It appeared in The Tamworth Herald, in October 1924, a few months after Villa’s first appearance at Wembley, and their eighth Cup Final. Although it appears to be written in the first person, I suspect that the article was put together by a reporter, based on Dorrell’s words.

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All rights reserved: No copying nor distribution without the consent of John Lerwill.

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This is one of a series of summer articles from the archives that I have obtained with the object of writing a book on the Villa. Those articles I’m publishing here will not be included ‘verbatim’ in my book, but I thought it may be worthwhile to publish some of them on Aston Villa Life as an insight into the thinking back then – of 100 years ago and more.

These articles are published ‘as is’ with only a small attempt on my part at being helpful by the insertion of a comment or two.

Doubtless, the reader will find some of the language quite archaic, but I nevertheless hope that you persevere through the article and extract a good idea from it and grasp how evolutionary all the thinking was in those days. And also how much thought was expended on how to improve the game.

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FOOTBALL. OUR CUP SUCCESS.

ASTON VILLA AND THEIR SECRET.

By Arthur Dorrell (Aston Villa)

League champions come and go, but Aston Villa remain as the most successful Cup fighters the game has known. I am not going into details concerning their success. They will be familiar to the majority of my readers.

Year after year, no matter what their League position, the Villa gird up their loins, and go right ahead in the Cup.

Is there some special magic in the old claret and blue uniform? Is the club in possession of some dark secret of success? Is it, as our envious “friends” suggest, just sheer luck?

I will endeavour to answer these questions as best I can, craving the reader’s forgiveness if, through lack of literary ability, I fail to express my thoughts with the clearness of the trained journalist.

Is it luck? I need not Waste much of my space in answering this. For over 40 years the Villa has been a power in the Cup. It is perhaps too much to say they have started favourites every season, but this certainly has been very often the case. Could luck extend over all those years? I think it is extremely doubtful.

My own idea about luck in life, as well as on the playing-field, is that it goes in cycles. I believe that in the long run it levels up.

Mind you, I believe that the man who sits down and grouses about his luck is going to make it worse for himself. The same applies to a football team. If your luck is out in football it is best to grin and bear it. Once you let your misfortunes get on your nerves you lose confidence, and if your confidence goes you are indeed in a bad way.

It is an oft-heard expression that to win the Cup you must be lucky as well as clever. This, to my thinking, is one of those half-truths which are highly dangerous as well as misleading.

A team can win the Cup on sheer merit. It does not follow because it has been lucky in the draw that it would have been beaten had the draw given them tougher hurdles to surmount.

As a matter of fact, it has been my experience that Villa players always feel more confident when the draw gives them something difficult to achieve. It is the rough and tumble “little” team that often springs surprises. When you are faced with class opposition it draws the best out of you, and you probably rise to the occasion.

To the argument that the Villa are lucky my answer is, “Maybe, but they have known how to take advantage of it.”

Is there some special magic in the old claret and blue? I am not more superstitious than any other footballer, but I do believe there is something in tradition. It is impossible to turn out with a Villa side without feeling it. A record which sparkles with great deeds and great names is bound to give you inspiration. When a youngster first, puts his name to the form which binds him to Aston Villa, he is bound to feel something of this pride of club.

What helps to keep this appeal so vivid and so real is that so many of the men whose names written large in Aston Villa history are still actively connected with the club. Their value-I mean their actual playing value-cannot be overestimated. Think of the help it is to have the assistance of such great players and such close students of the game as Mr. Howard Spencer and Mr. John Devey.

The Villa spirit, believe me, still exists and is a very real asset to the club. Perhaps I feel it especially because my father has told me so much about the great players with whom he was proud to be associated, and so many stirring tales of the club’s early history.

Who, for instance, could hear of the pathos of the end of that fine player Archie Hunter, without feeling a great respect for the man, and admiration for the club that  could inspire such devotion.

Archie, as every old footballer knows, died of consumption in a house situated on the road from the city to the then Villa ground. To the last the dying man insisted upon his bed being so placed that he could see the crowd hurrying past to Perry Barr.

There is no need for me to recall some of the great feats of the club, but it is tempting to remind readers that under the captaincy of Mr. Devey, the Villa actually won the League five times and the Cup Twice, and that in 1897 they equalled the proud record of the Invincibles, and won the Cup and the League—a double which has since defied every club.

Just think of the celebrities who made up that team. Whitehouse was in goal, Spencer and Evans were the backs, Reynolds, Cowan and Crabtree the half-backs, and Athersmith, Devey, John Campbell, Wheldon, and Steve Smith, the forwards.

A player would be dead to sentiment indeed if he did not feel a thrill of pride to be under the banner of a club which once was represented by a team like this. Yes, there is magic in the old claret and blue, the magic which comes from glorious traditions and a universally honoured name.

There is no secret recipe for our cup success-at least, none but what is apparent to any observer who cares to study our play. I have figured in two final ties with my club, and if I have been impressed with anything, it is the remarkable confidence with which we enter upon our cup games. Take last season as a case in point. It was the club’s Jubilee season and every member of the side seemed to take it as a matter of course that we should be at Wembley. The old knack of rising to the occasion seems in some mysterious way to be inherited by every footballer who dons a Villa jersey.

Perhaps what helps a player to catch this inspiration from the past, to which I have referred, is the fact that it has ever been the policy of the Aston Villa management to sign young players in preference to securing ready-made talent. By this means there is every opportunity to mould a player—to fashion him according to the Villa style and method.

I trust I shall not be misunderstood. I do not mean to suggest that Aston Villa holds a  monopoly in club spirit and inspiring tradition. Fortunately for football, there are other clubs where these qualities are valuable assets, and, it is worthy of notice, these clubs are always to be numbered with the most successful.The spirit which animates a management is bound to have its reflection upon the players who are its representatives upon the field of play. It would ill become me as a professional player to elaborate this point, and I do not think there is any need.

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John Lerwill
I'm a Villan of more than 60 years standing and an occasional writer on Villa history. For me there is only one football club worth supporting, but I am now wondering whether I will again see anything like the pageant that was paraded under Ron Saunders or even that by Big Ron and Brian Little. My glass, however, is always half-full! Click here for my Villa website.

Comments 99

  1. Paul Pears

    Another fine piece JL, with plenty of stimulating thoughts, especially with the reference to the ups and downs evening out, which should mean that after 35 years of missing out Villa should now start on the upward movement…!!!

    Would be also great to see us return to being a young and talented side playing the Villa way….!!!

  2. James Gill

    RIP BRADLEY
    what a fighter god love him

    and also have to hand a big well done to jermaine defoe, usually first to criticise a player but well done
    really looked after little bradley in his hour of woe

  3. IanG

    JL
    Thanks for the article.
    We certainly used to have the knack, although it seems to have become a knack to shoot ourselves in the foot in recent times.
    I worry about the young players not being given a chance, especially with the talked about over thirties becoming a large group.
    I mean, 45 players in the group in Portugal, plus those out injured to add, & the high earners who look like staying for the money, & we haven’t even hardly brought anyone else in yet.
    Pity about Jerell Sellars

  5. Mark King

    thanks JL

    JG- yes a real tragedy poor lad, I hope there is a heaven for him or there is no purpose to such a brief life.

    IanG- exactly how I am feeling, its not the bright new era I was hoping for just a grab for prem gold.

  6. John Lerwill

    Mark,

    There is a heaven for the poor boy. There is always a purpose in everything that happens, but we don’t tend to believe it (or accept it). But I can accept the parents find it difficult (an understatement).

  9. Mark King

    JL- thank you I know Heartmath well I have an app and heart rate monitor of theirs that makes meditation a whole lot easier, they try to build coherence between your heart and mind, its good stuff.
    Heres an interesting breakthrough, a device called the NES Mihealth. a small hand held device that reads your biofield and finds blocked energy pathways, it then corrects them by giving the field the correct information so the body can heal. Its science meets eastern medicine to put it crudely but may be much more. Its star treks tri-corder 🙂 would love to get one but there around £2000 I believe. I know it looks like snake oil but a lot of respected alternative health practitioners are bowled over by it. Its been in development for 30 years. Loads on youtube if you look.

    http://www.neshealth.com/total-wellnes-system/nes-mihealth/

  12. James Gill

    mk
    wouldnt mind an experienced keeper , but after that we need players to be able to step up a level,
    our entire defence will need an upgrade if we get promoted
    midfield we dont have a functioning one
    strikers like midfield we have kodja but he doesnt like playing with anyone else
    it is still a shambles, bloated squad that no one else wants

  13. Heroes-and-Villans

    James mate… Really! Round has appointed lots of new staff and in such a short time we are scooping up young talent again. Follow one of them on twitter and he properly announces the signings. Round is more currntly trying to fix the things we cant see. Dont understand the negative digs. The whole club is being built up again slowly shame you cant see it. Hard i know when its behind the scenes. Bree and the cb beau are the ones that got headlines but theres been more at younger ages. Takes time.

  15. Mark King

    Andrew- villa tinted glasses aside you have to admit JG has a point. To use my favourite other team to illustrate Huddersfield went from struggler’s to the prem in 1 1/2 seasons with the right manager and a bunch of unknowns. Why then is it the only talent we can see winning us promotion are those that have done it before? why are Villa such a special case? in all honesty ineptitude aside it doesn’t take ancient players to achieve, three teams went up last season without them.

  16. IanG

    ‘Aston Villa and Sevilla have agreed the transfer of Jordan Amavi, subject to medical testing within the next few days.’
    I’m not sure the others will be so easy to shift

  17. Trinity

    Sorry to hear about Bradley.

    JL-Thank you again for another glimpse into Villa’s glorious past.
    Arthur Dorrell made a good point about not letting a bit of bad luck get one down because it will affect confidence. And in his experience, it tends to even out. The important thing is to kep the chin up and keep working hard. I think a bit of bad luck got to Villa at the beginning of the last campaign.

  19. Heroes-and-Villans

    Mark

    I was just refering to the point about round. But the need for bruce to be going for the experinced players for first team….who knows if it will work. Being settled is more important for me. Brighton and toon went up with brighton on a steady positive settled upward curve for years. Toon had rafa in mid way through he prem season and kept there players. Huddy…well it as crazy what they did…dont get many teams do what they did. With what villa have gone through over the years i think being settled is our aim. Get a bond and team spirit. Not fussed about ages. We will soon see how it pans out for bruce!

  20. Heroes-and-Villans

    No tinted glasses on either…just calling it as i see it. Really think people easily forget we are actually building a club from top to bottom. Like it or not it takes time.

    Dont think we are targeting players who have gone up before…more bruce wants players with a prof hard working mentality. Can see where he is coning from tbf, we were weak on the road last season, players never turned up. Dr allready hinted the away form main issue to resolve. Players like terry and whelean might help for that?

    If we can still blood grealish, green and rhm 3 young local lads that would be a good balance.

    Nor sure what the perfect blend is to get out the championship is though!

  27. James Gill

    andrew
    what is round job description, same for wynes, as for signing young players our own academy players arent good enough, yet play regurarly for other clubs
    you also say we are going toplay 352 but no green one of our better players last season but bruce doesn t like youth
    whelan is crap seen him live for eire 6 times gets pelters from fans that usually are easy pleasesd
    selling amavi to seville for less than we paid plus only young yet seville have got 12 from leicster for a 29 year olld
    so do please show me where things are getting better on/off field at villa 13th last season and only player added is jt less than 4 weeks to go

  28. Heroes-and-Villans

    James

    There is no helping you my friend! You see it or you dont!

    Dr tweeted

    2 signings close 3 cm to choose from at 50%
    5 outgoings getting close.

    Seen whelean for stokes lots…would love him. The guys been playing prem footy regulary for for years! Plus we simply have to strngthen that area, cant be relying on jedi again to win a game!! Rotate whelean, jedi. Hopng it will be mccarthur at palace…like him alot.

    Green will get plenty of mins this season im sure.

    What did we sell amavi for?

  31. Heroes-and-Villans

    What does seem scary…which we knew about under that tit randy at the time and the things keith has said….if it wasnt for the dr i believe we would have much more to moan about! Going down again a real possiblity.

    Like i keep saying under randy we had nothing! No football people behind the scenes, on the board. 3 scouts…the scout for germany lived in australia! Losing out on young talent. We are building a club from scratch! Cast your mind back to breaking every negative record in the prem, randy killing our club and we all said it would take years to recover…..and we was right. Patience.

  34. James Gill

    andrew
    it is not as simple as either you see it or not
    none new signings [targets] resemble steve round
    john terry signing was a thank you from JT to steve round from england days when terry was excluded
    when have you sat and watched whelan play he gets a nose bleed if he goes past centre circle another defensive player to add to growing squad, of which none are good enough to play in premier league
    also seen a report in which would like john doyle to comment cowans was pushed out and said things not all they seem

  35. Mark King

    Andrew- we may well get promoted this season its all to play for as yet. Rarely do teams with ageing players make a go of the prem if we do succeed and that is the basis we will go up with to build from. We will then ask Bruce to build a team to keep us up so youth will be sidelined again imo. We cherry picked the championship last season of strikers and mid-fielders and signed players a plenty with promotion experience yet looked anything but contenders.

    If we do go up we will not imo have a team to build on with players that have grown together in a style that will lend itself to the prem, our key players will be to old. Huddersfield showed what can be done with the right man and the right plan and eye for players. Wagner has said he does not look for players with experience of the league only that they fit his ideas and plans. A lot like Clough did.

    We have a massive squad and hodge podge of players at the moment that to make a challenge Bruce has gone for experience to achieve, why? because he is under pressure from the doc. If last season had been approached with more forethought instead of a similar approach to this so far then I would say its progress as a club. All I see is a team built for the purpose of promotion, no more. That might be enough for you, for me I wanted to see more and round is not doing what he first laid out, no ethos at all, Bruce has a free hand to get promotion but its nothing to do with a club identity.

  36. OldVilla

    James and Mark, please just for once try and see the positives in what is happening at VP – and stop the ‘my mate said this so it must be true’ stuff. Andrew is absolutely correct in what he says and he doesn’t wholeheartedly agree with what is going on, as probably we all don’t as we have so much rubbish to contend with over the past few seasons.
    Just to pick up on a few points – James, you say JT was a thank you to Steve round? What proof have you got for that statement James? And hasn’t Whelan been a premiership player for the last few season! So what is wrong with him as our players haven’t been premiership!
    Mark – who gives a toss at the moment about what happens when/if we get up to the premiership? What we want is to get up there and the sort it from that point. We are trying to unload players as we speak and surely you must be aware of this? Do you really think that the current management team are not aware of what is needed and what we have to do? They really aren’t as stupid as you and JG would portray. Maybe we should should chill out and see what happens over the first ten or so games and then make judgements instead of writing off everything that the club is trying to do as rubbish.
    I’m not saying that you have to be completely positive about everything, just slightly less negative and willing to trust in the team in place to sort out the shamble they have inherited.
    Oldvilla

  37. Mark King

    to put it simply if bruce had been here at the start of last season, bought in a lot of hull players and journey men and got promoted we would be no further forward as a club just in the prem with money. Wagner on the other hand had a massive hand in revitalising Huddersfield, that would make rounds job easy imo as he has a basis to build something to support the first team, at the moment its two separate things imo .

  39. Mark King

    old villa- I give a toss, because we will go up half arsed, missing out on an opportunity to be better this time around. Going on last season the management are not that great either, put your faith were you like I am speaking from what I have seen so far, I have said we may go up but its not all roses and I really do not see my comments as you do as negative, sorry.

  40. OldVilla

    Mark K – all i will say is that the comments that have been posted today are the type that stop me from commenting more on this site. It seems that whatever the Villa do, they will be lambasted and taken the mickey out of by those who obviously know better.
    I was talking to one of the old C-Crew lads yesterday and said to him – are you still seeing the old lads and going down the Villa? He said – “I can’t get enough mate, I’m totally in it and just got my tickets for Colchester and Cardiff.” He is old school and will support his team totally, no matter what. He may not agree with everything that goes on down the Villa but he will never stop fighting for his team home and away, sometimes both mentally and physically – as it is HIS team and he will follow them simply because of that.
    All this ‘Villa dont know what they are doing and Huddersfield/RDM/Brighton/ whoever did it so much better’ is quite irrelevant as we are the Villa and we are where we are. And we have a team in place so why not let them do their job?
    oldvilla

  41. Heroes-and-Villans

    Its very funny what people see. Would be boring if we saw or thought the same.

    Saw huddy alot last season and they were on the large awful. Went up via playoffs without scoring a goal and the games were dreadfull….could not tell you what style etc wagner enjoys? Note that huddy have brought 5 players in a week he cant be that happy with his team?! If a team from the champ goes up they will need to spend and spend big. Youll simply have to buy a better quality of player to compete.

    Its what villas plan is so we have been told lots. Buy a team to go up. Buy a team to stay up and another to dominate :). Sounds like a plan to me!

  42. Heroes-and-Villans

    oldvilla

    There is sense of negativity for the sake of negativity. But thats villa fans in general! Rather focus on the bad dont worry about the good.

    Im pleased we have targeted whelean to fix the jedi problem…and like you say he is a reg prem player but not good enough for us in the champ?!

    Im glad jt sees what i see 🙂

  44. Heroes-and-Villans

    Its 6 players that are nearly going. And a journo tweeted like the dr about a signing done…not johnson?!

    Could not be whelean james:) macarthur or ledley too!

    Everythings far from rosey…we have lots to do but we are on the right track with proper football people on board…. After having nothing in place! We will make mistakes….we will sign some players that dont work out but im convinced the doc learns by them and will put them right. Including bruce!

  45. James Gill

    oldvilla
    think if you read my post i have never said my mate said
    as for round and jt it was all over medi time it happened
    as for whelan another coming for last pay day ,seen him at aviva for ireland 6 times last couple season where his favourite pass was to our keeper,so no i dont want him in a villa shirt we have enough crap,
    and when things seem to go right i will be first to welcome it,
    as for andrew
    today he posted we were going 352 and no place for green then later green going to get loads of games how

  47. OldVilla

    James – not sure what medi time is but if whatever it is said that JT was only signing to say thank you to Round then there must be a case for slander?
    And the fact is that whatever YOU think of Whelan, then he is still a regular with a Premier club which is better than a lot we could look at …………… even if he doesnt exactly set my world alight at the thought of him …… but maybe he can do a job and thats what the management team at the Villa have recognised? I’m willing to give whoever we sign a chance to prove themselves. I remember last season when you said how poor Taylor was and that he was a crap signing for the Villa. Mainly because of what you had read on a Swansea website. But then he turned out to be one of our players of the season………
    When you say we have enough crap, don’t we also have enough good players who should be able to get us promoted? There are two sides to things as most on here will recognise …..
    oldvilla

  48. Heroes-and-Villans

    Put some positive sensible articles up …. No comments?!

    Oldvilla

    We have more than enough to go up. Pressure on bruce massively. Hourihan, hogan, lansbury, chester, kodjer, terry, taylor, grealish, jedi, adomah are a nuleous to survive in the prem. Bruce has to get more goals from the team and fix the away form which we terrible.

  49. John Lerwill

    OV: “All this ‘Villa dont know what they are doing and Huddersfield/RDM/Brighton/ whoever did it so much better’ is quite irrelevant as we are the Villa and we are where we are. “

    Yes. Agreed. And what is going to happen in the future is anyone’s guess until it happens: it always pans out differently for each club and the circumstances.

    As for last season (and many other seasons that I can remember) it will take a couple of months before we can see what’s happening – whether we look as though we’re clicking.

    As per you and Andrew I tend to feel rather +ve right now, but I’m always a bit opti.

  51. IanG

    OV et al
    I’m a brummie who still lives here.
    If we can’t look on the dark humour side we’m f****ed.
    Also the NHS is so bad I can’t get my prozac.
    It’s more a case of watching the show until something goes beyond apparition, & actually solidifies into what we are going to have to look at until January.
    Also there’s no substance [positive or negative] beyond snoozing until we get to some action, so if you get your kicks by arguing over propaganda & what doesn’t exist yet, then good luck with that.
    personally I’m more into where to get a good curry until then, but keep my eye open ready.
    Whatever turns you on.

  53. IanG

    Andrew
    That was ages ago & a sparrow doesn’t make a migration.
    Probably best not to get too excited, especially with a 36 yr old being the only signing so far & with a loan about to be extended.
    Not very exciting yet.

  57. Heroes-and-Villans

    Terry
    Whelean or, mccarthur
    Johnson
    Elhamidy
    Crouch?

    Iang

    Im no way excited, i just try and be fair and balanced…i prob come across as it on here but im not convinced we are going up.

    Years of hurt under randy means i dont dream anymore!!

  58. Heroes-and-Villans

    My love affair with villa is more ive always thought us a nice family properly run club. Thats what i loved even as a kid. And thats what destroyed me under randy…its been proper poison. Why i like the dr and all the new staff and even the little things like sitting with xia, and building bridges back with the community is it feels the connections back with the fans. Thats my main reason for loing villa. Not obsessed with tika taka or playing total footy, i wont my classy, family loving nice club back.

  60. Mark King

    OV- looking from the outside it seems obvious to me the direction we are taking is based on promotion that’s all I am saying. Promotion (and therefore money)is the priority over building a set up like Southampton (which when Round arrived was the talk) Round is new to the position he is in, and certainly new to the position in a club our size. Only a couple of months from the end of last season did Bruce realise the players were not using the gym or doing the wrong stuff in it and getting injured. They then employed a trainer in that role, doesn’t look that professional or thorough to me to have overlooked that, RDM’s, trainer left with him. Time will tell whether Round has the ability or not.

    Its my view Round has given the manager free reign rather than stick to the clubs original plan (younger players with sell on) . I suspect Bruce has to give them short contracts and not pay large signing fees though( Xia has been moaning about the previous incumbents stupid contracts for old players like Hutton, Gabby etc.)

    Dr Xia is amiable enough and a cheer leader but likewise new to the role, Bruce is following his remit which has always been promotion. He is not and never will be a manager that coaches the players and he has proven to be no tactician in his career either, so the type of players he is targeting are no surprise either. The arrival of Terry is an attempt to galvanise the squad and bring them together imo, ( I told you months ago of the problems in that respect, and I saw a picture on the Villa site with the source of the info with his arm around Terrys shoulder this week,so I have no doubt its true).

    Terry, and the others we are looking at are more Bruce’s men (he trusts them), I don’t think the Jan windows players were so much other than Hourihane (who played as a kid for Bruce) they were the cream of the champs at the time bought in hope they would continue their goals and assists and put us in the play offs, didn’t work out that way largely due to the style of play they were not used to IMO.

    Of course Bruce knows what he is doing, he’s doing it his way though and always has, hard to beat is his signature (and hard to watch if you ask former clubs fans) will he get us up, quite likely, will we be a progressive club under him, no.

    Andrew- I find it odd the way you see Huddersfield, they played some good stuff with wingers at times and played the high press. teams eventually cottoned on and sat back and they got done several times with high scores but he sorted that but dull games were more due to the opposition imo pretty much in the way our games were. In the play offs he switched to sitting off reading because they play counter (same as we did when Bruce arrived except thats Bruces go to style) so he’s no one trick pony. What I like is his ability to see a player that is not in the lime light that he can work with and develop in a short time (and I mean one on one)

    Huddersfield are a family club that can play and nothing galvanises fans more than goals and a bit of success. Wagner is very much part of their community and stayed loyal when he could of moved here or elsewhere because he believes in his project there and repaying the man that gave him the chance. Their head of scouting went to Norwich so we will see how much was down to Wagners recruitment vs his? I suspect not as much as Norwich think or why not offer him more money to stay they have a £100m.

    I like Wagner and Huddersfield because they are a good example of how it can be done for not much money in comparison to us. Brighton and plenty others that have gone up recently are too.
    I don’t think because we are Villa we have to do it different either.

  61. John Lerwill

    Mark: “I don’t think because we are Villa we have to do it different either.”

    Since when did Villa copy anyone else in their first (great) 50 years?

    To be great you have to be the author of your own destiny.

  64. Mark King

    JL- to add, If say another manager had come in last season and done it completely differently to the ones we had and went up do we then claim thats the Villa way?

  65. Mark King

    Its also worth noting that due to FFP we are on an economy drive. There is no Guarantee the likes of Gil Richards etc will be off the books come the end of August, that would be a tricky position. If we are to attract prem experienced older players on big wages what then? Bruce is left with the puzzle he didn’t solve last season, how to get the players he has to play his way, I hope to god he is working hard at that rather than putting his eggs in the old player basket.

  66. John Lerwill

    Mark: “so every club has found an entirely different way of playing the game”

    I was referring to great teams, Mark. Not every flibbertigibbet team! 😉

  67. John Lerwill

    By ‘great teams’ I mean those who have truly built themselves up out of their sense of imagination.

    You can count them on one hand, probably … PNE, Aston Villa, Man U (the Matt Busby vision), Wolves (of the 1950s), Spurs (the 1960-63 teams) and Liverpool (1960s-80s) as perhaps the greatest – certainly in terms of longevity.

    I don’t think there are any others apart from perhaps Arsenal under Wenger.

    You and others might put forward other teams but unless I’m mistaken the great achievements of other teams (particularly over the last 25 years) has been down to how much money has been spent to build their sides. That’s not ‘greatness’, that’s just money!

  68. Mark King

    JL- Correct me if I am wrong but are you speaking of innervation? Barca, bayern, Ajax and plenty others outside the uk had that in spades too. Most tactics as we have discussed before are rehashes of former systems, even the high press came from the early 1900’s, pepe being one proponent and student of History. I cannot see any innervation going on at VP only Bruces tried and tested.

    Here it is in black and white, we are a ticking bomb in terms of money and time. The approach we have at this point if not successful could see us going backwards. Thats why I wanted to see solid foundations put down not a shaky shelter put up because its raining.

    “And Xia has explained why the claret and blues are targeting proven performers.”

    He said: “It’s need good balance as getting promotion is also critical task for us. Experience can save some mistakes and time.”

    http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/what-tony-xia-say-aston-13304893

    Picking the right coach and players and coaching them to perform can also save time,mistakes and money 😉

  69. John Lerwill

    Mark: “Correct me if I am wrong but are you speaking of innervation”

    I could have used the word “innovation” but “imagination” sounded better (to me)! 😉

    I would agree that all those teams tried to balance home-grown with acquisitions, but “innovation” refers to an approach that is a modification of what has gone before. I don’t think that’s truly been the case in the teams I listed. In those teams, there was a fresh injection of ‘something’ else that made the difference: some other form of originality though using previous methods that worked as a basis.

    That’s my view f.w.i.w

    Whatever, Mark, we’re all subject to karma, and that applies as much to AVFC as it does to us.

  70. Mark King

    JL- I would say all those teams had one other thing some great men to come up with and implement the innervations rehashed or not. Steve Bruce has a presence but he is not in that league obviously.

    talking of Karma Stephen Hawkins has said we have passed the tipping point and no governments have the will or want to try and change things, in other words we are all doomed, doomed I tell ee !!! serves us right, as an intelligent species we are dim 🙂

  71. IanG

    Andrew
    I’m not being pessimistic just waiting to see what unfolds.
    Crouch is currently only a rumour, so I don’t know what you’re taking, but it doesn’t make realities happen just because you would like it to be so, even if it whiles away the happy hour.
    If Crouch , who wasn’t here for long & wasn’t that successful, actually ends up here, so be it, but so far we have one 36 yr old transfer, & every joe Bloggs & his dog definitely coming to the Villa according to the media & enthusiasts.

    Here’s what the Doc says about Crouch.
    http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/what-tony-xia-say-aston-13304893

    The nearest to a possible completion that I can see is the goalkeeper coming back on loan.
    I see progress & a potential so far, but little factual progression in the transfer market.
    From experience I am waiting to see what happens in the transfer market [including outgoings] before getting over excited.
    But it looks better than this time last season, & time will tell whether Bruce succeeds in changing the habits of a lifetime & is still here & we get promoted without being bored to death & selling our souls to the dark side.

  72. John Lerwill

    IanG: “Crouch , who wasn’t here for long & wasn’t that successful”

    Mmmmm… maybe DOL didn’t let him?

    Recall…
    1. Graham Taylor (who signed him) said he’d play for England. He did: 42 times.
    2. DOL sold him for 2m or 4m to Southampton? Within a few months he went off to Liverpool from there for 7 or 8 million!

    Conclusion? DOL didn’t like him or didn’t know how to play him.

  75. James Gill

    surely last january the doc wynes knew we were close to ffp so why go mad spending
    take full back
    we had hutton delaet richards and bacuna we then went out spent 3/4 m on bree but yet carried on playing hutton which cost a new contract worth about 2m madness
    midfield
    bruce gave gardner a new better contract then spent about 10m on lansby hourriane and birr on fairly decent contracts, added to jedi plus depending on set up grealish bacuna and yet we are looking at paying 1m for whelan with a 2/3 year contract , 8players for 2/3 places

  76. John Lerwill

    IanG,

    No, he wasn’t very successful at Villa for the reasons stated. He was still a youngster at the time.

    Yes, I’d say he’s a useful person to have on the bench to provide a surprise or two.

  77. John Lerwill

    James,

    Yes, that maybe how Crouch went – but why choose him for the boot? GT said he’d play for England, and he did.

    If I recall rightly, Crouch scored 2 at Leicester towards the end of his last season with Villa and was just beginning to get his game going.

  78. Mark King

    For me it just says we are going to forgo giving the youngsters game time , Crouch would mean Davis who showed promise in the hold up role will be ditched. This just holds up the players learning and we all cry their not ready, of course they are not they have been given no experience 😉

    One thing is plain is our former youth players deemed not good enough helped their teams to better finishes and some even got promotion 🙂

  79. OldVilla

    JL – “Conclusion? DOL didn’t like him or didn’t know how to play him.”

    Exactly John. I saw Crouch when he first played for the Villa and he was a raw product yes, but he had something about him that most of the fans recognised and you could see that he might become a very good player. Problem was he didnt fit in with DOL’s game plan so we lost another good player for peanuts. But he always got a good response from the fans when ever he came back to VP.

    James G – good to see that you arent changing your ways and can be relied on to be our Mr Grumpy no matter what 😉 Keep up the good work, it cant be easy ………

    And on the subject of negativity and positivity – it isnt about being either positive or negative, its about having a balanced view. I certainly have hammered the Villa in previous years about Villa and Gabby and about the old regime as they systematically destroyed my club. Which could be viewed as a positive negative lol ……
    And as most of us will say on here, we know that things arent right yet but we can see the green shoots of recovery and as such will always say “we dont know how it will all pan out yet, so lets wait and see before ripping the club and all who sail in her apart yet again”
    Yours in a Lib/Dem mode, oldvilla

  82. IanG

    OV
    You old reactionary you.
    Absolutely wait & see time, but it can change quickly.
    Crouch had potential yes, & many of us disagreed with O’Dreary selling Crouch, but to bring him back on high wages at the end of his career & block the youngsters coming through, especially regarding how many strikers we already have would be a mistake, & depressing.
    JL
    As I said JL do you want him to come back, or are you just playing devil’s advocate?

  83. Mark King

    OV- with all due respect I think we know what will happen if the dads army approach works and we go up. We will spend a massive amount of money on an entirely new team of that I have no doubt. The only reason we are not spending now is we are skint. When we came up and had our clubs best spell in recent times culminating in the European cup we had a decent side worth building on and some great youth players. It was lack of planning for the next part (domination) that we failed. I think we will have years of struggle in the prem when we do go up following this path unless Xia has a genius waiting in the wings for that occasion, on form so far nah.

  84. John Lerwill

    IanG: “do you want him to come back, or are you just playing devil’s advocate?”

    I thought I’d answered you! 😉

    I’m happy for him to come, but have to admit that with 5 strikers already available (including the two youngsters) I do wonder why.

    But more to the point … it seems to be just rumour anyway! 🙂

  85. James Gill

    john l
    oleary couldnt sell any one else for money like now graham taylor 2nd time round signed lot of oldies leohardson ronny johnson mark kinsella delecruz alback couldnt give them away

    ov
    if john terry peter crouch and glenn whelan are green shoots of recoverey we may shut villa park up and build houses on it

  87. OldVilla

    Dear Mr Grumpy, I hadn’t realised we’d signed Crouch and Whelan?

    And good to see Mr K is backing you up lol ……
    The Chuckle brothers 🙁

    oldvilla

  88. IanG

    JL
    You were obviously getting too cryptic cos I didn’t get that.
    But just waiting for some real action so we know what we’re looking at

  90. OldVilla

    And Mr Grumpy – take the mickey if you like, but the green shoots of recovery that most of us can see, go an awful lot deeper than rumours about who we might be buying. Maybe you need to look to follow the ‘perfect’ team whoever that may be …………….
    oldvilla

  92. OldVilla

    IanG – Addressed to Mr James Gill ….. who I now call Mr Grumpy because of his sunny disposition for all things AVFC related 🙂

    oldvilla

  93. James Gill

    ov
    villa blog and few other sites go down the route of naming calling bit childish me thinks but if it keeps you happy carry on
    andrew post we are signing everyone its all good from you but carry on with name calling

  94. OldVilla

    Apologies James – I thought you might have had a sense of humour.
    I won’t call you horrible names ever again, honest.

    oldvilla

  95. Archie

    Evening each, I see there’s some happy souls on here who can’t wait to see us fail.
    looking back to 87 when we were last relegated it was a result of a badly run, mismanaged club by Ronnie Bendell which Doug put right, same has happened with the Randy Learner mis-management years. I personally think we’re primed and ready to go. The clubs run better now. I know we hate the Steve Bruce football, but lets get back to the top division and put it right there. I think this is his last gig, when he gets us up, I think he’ll knock it on the head
    If we’re really that bad and lacking in every department……why are we favourites to be promoted.
    The journey continues, Arch

  96. OldVilla

    Evening Archie, well put and absolutely correct – the journey continues indeed, as it has done for me for the past 54 years since I first went down VP. And what a journey it has been eh? But we keep smiling and supporting our team with the thought that we will get back to where we belong.

    oldvilla

  98. Mark King

    Archie- Nobody wants us to fail thats just you bigging yourself up mate and it has diddly squat to do with personal happiness, why are we favourites? if I remember correctly were we not one of the favourites last season too? oh and Huddersfield for the drop. Trouble with the world is your can’t have it all your own way nor have complete agreement .

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