Ellis’s return to the Villa board, and as chairman, was perhaps fortuitous, yet his old sense of opportunism had been at work to make the timely move. Ron Bendall had become a very ill man by 1982, and he was looking to leave the board. He was not particularly a football man anyway; his son Don was also on the board and was the football follower of the two. In fact, Bendall’s shares looked very much as though they were going to go to Harry Parkes’s consortium (“We are quite close to winning it. I am excited at the thought”, said Parkes, Ellis’s adversary), but along came Doug at the precisely right moment to make an offer that Bendall could not refuse. It was November 1982.
What happened subsequently was that Villa’s highly successful team was fairly quickly disbanded, but there are so many contributory issues to that situation, mostly to do with the state of finances at the club.
It has to be remembered that Ron Saunders had successfully obtained for his players a remuneration agreement that put the first-team players amongst the topmost paid in England. The players’ wage bill (including bonuses) had nearly reached one million pounds in Villa’s championship season – a figure that in those days seemed astronomical, though thirty-plus years after it reads as a small figure, comparatively-speaking. It is difficult to take in that a top player’s pay at that time was £50,000 per year — not per week!
Despite the club’s successes, the club had been making substantial annual losses, and even Bendall had become very concerned about the state of affairs. Added to which (at the time of Ellis’s return) the effect of an economic depression in the Midlands was beginning to be felt; Villa Park’s attendances were falling dramatically. About 21,000 was becoming the typical attendance, which represented a 25% average reduction, with the ground still having a potential of 50,000. Even a ‘derby’ against Coventry attracted only 26,000, which was said to be the break-even level. On top of all that, Ellis returned just at the time of revelations that appeared concerning allegedly dubious financial dealings to do with the construction of the (then) recently built North Stand.
In short, Ellis returned as almost the ‘Honest Joe’ (on face value at least) to put aright the alleged misdemeanours of the previous administration, and with the pressure of the club’s financial situation of that time, his view was that something simply had to ‘give’. First of all, he decided, there had to be pruning of the top players (several of whom were in fact coming to the end of their top-class careers) and their high wages, and also the application of significant control on purchases. Ellis also felt that the youth development system had worked so well that many first-team positions could be filled by promotion from the reserves.
In essence, what was probably needed at the top at Villa Park was someone with Ellis’s business acumen who also had access to funds to put right the current situation and also to invest in the future. If Ellis did have such funds, they did not materialise; indeed, when it became legal for football directors to receive a salary, Ellis ensured that he received a six-figure sum as his annual pay and as his right.
However, for some time the supporters themselves were rather tired of being left out of the affairs of the club. Buck Chinn had gained the attention of the press and was soon attending shareholders meetings and becoming generally vocal. He would say (just prior to Doug Ellis returning as chairman, 1982): “This club is not like some Meccano set, bought by Ron Bendall for his son Don. It does not belong to the Bendalls, or any one family; it belongs to the supporters. It belongs to the ordinary fans and shareholders, the people who come through the turnstiles to see the team play.”
By 1984, the Aston Villa Democracy Group was pushing forward its agenda concerning fans’ participation in club affairs and social organisation, and the fans protests escalated over the following years until Ellis finally negotiated the sale of the club to Randy Lerner in 2006. But those preceding 14 years had seen an escalation of antipathy towards Doug Ellis, though perhaps that was down to the manner by which Ellis kept control, by not respecting the fans’ voice until it seems to have suited him.
All the action by the fans, however, mainly arose from the anger felt that the window of opportunity in the early 1980s had been lost. Aston Villa was the only sizeable club that had not built on European Cup success, and that – to the fans – was a huge disappointment. But it is possible that the actual financial picture (as it was in 1982, and discussed earlier) has never been taken on board by the fans. Their single-minded view was succinctly put by a fans’ spokesman to Ellis at an AGM a long time ago: “All we won is three okey-cokey cups and nothing else. It is just not good enough and you have been in charge throughout this time. We have seen players leave and they have not been [adequately] replaced.”
It was perhaps predictable that the means that Ellis used to put straight the club’s finances also brought about an alarming fall in the club’s performances on the field, particularly after Tony Barton’s dismissal in 1984. Barton had been under pressure from Ellis to reduce the size of the squad but Barton grimly held his position, stating that he would let players go only when Villa were in the right position to do so. Barton went.
Villa’s gates plunged even further (15,000 was soon accepted as the average), and, by 1987 — only five years after winning Europe’s major trophy — Villa were relegated. However, it should not go unnoticed that Ellis is reported as having tried to prise Ron Atkinson away from Manchester United in 1984, a move that caused the Sports Argus to comment: “There is no doubt though that Mr Ellis is thinking big. It certainly takes a lot of audacity to try to prise away the manager of Manchester United.” But having failed to get Atkinson, Ellis went to find a mew manager from the bargain store, and when that tactic failed, Billy McNeill arrived – in time to oversee the return of the Villa to the second tier.
Some believe Doug had done a ‘hatchet job’ on the great squad that won the League Championship and the European Cup, and then supervising a slide to relegation, but (if that was true) Doug Ellis could be said to have part redeemed himself by appointing the up-and-coming Graham Taylor as manager. Taylor (who, as a player, had acquired his coaching badge at the age of 21) was certainly a man of integrity and managerial quality, and had the ability to transform Villa, achieving promotion at the first attempt and then coming close to winning the league title in 1990 with a squad composed of a balance of home-grown and careful acquisitions. The acquisition of David Platt and Paul McGrath were masterstrokes, but so was the importation of a young and hungry player from the West Indies named Dwight Yorke. And the recall of Villa’s old playmaker, Gordon Cowans.
And Ellis was ready to try something new. The Villa have sometimes in their history tried first what other clubs were shy of doing, such as putting faith in Jimmy Hogan, though that move was essentially down to the visionary Fred Rinder: others at Villa did not share his imagination. Then, in a great piece of experimentation that sadly fell flat on its face, Doug Ellis brought in the successful Czech coach Dr. Josef Venglos in 1990, to replace the departing Taylor. Venglos was the first-ever foreign coach to be brought in by a top-flight British club. Then it was a unique experiment; today it is common practice.
But Ellis’s treatment of managers was regarded by those in and around Villa Park as deadly. Hence “Deadly Doug” became his epithet although it appears there is another origin for that title. Conversely, there were a great number who had all the time for Doug Ellis – he displayed many fine human attributes and Doug’s hospitality towards club visitors and players was legendary. Further, there were those who remembered (with respect) the days of 1968 and the timely arrival of Ellis and his colleagues to lead the Villa back to the top. Doug Ellis also played a significant role in the national administration of the game and was very strong in the belief that a new national stadium should be built in the Midlands rather than at Wembley. He campaigned strenuously for that, but was unsuccessful.
With this account of Villa’s history at this point coming into the 1990s, there is probably little point in recounting all that has happened since then as most readers will be in tune with the happenings since that time.
The facts remain, however, that in the 35 years since 1982, team managers at Villa have been rotated every three years or less, with the exception of John Gregory and Martin O’Neill, who each lasted 4 years. Both these managers walked out when convinced that they were not being financially backed by their chairmen. Shades of Ron Saunders, really. There has been a pattern of attitude by the club since World War Two that has not gone away, irrespective of who has been chairman. And, since O’Neill left, managerial appointments have been enabled very little (or no) stability.
In all the 70+ years since World War Two, the problem of how to develop and evolve a successful team at Villa Park has remained without a solution. Until today, at least. And this in a (supposedly) big club that is (supposedly) the biggest in the region, and with the largest catchment area. Even when Villa did win big trophies in 1981 and 1982 there was a problem in how the next step could be taken to achieve a Villa equivalent to a ‘Liverpool Era’. It is worthwhile recalling that at the start of the Premier League (in 1992), Villa were again ‘up there’ challenging for a top spot and giving Manchester United a run for their money. Alec Ferguson has been quoted as saying that he had expected Villa to provide the most challenge in the ensuing years; but that challenge from Villa evaporated.
Manchester United – who had been below Villa’s level of historical achievement in 1992 – not only won their first championship for 25 years in 1993, but went on to greater glories. Villa, meanwhile, slowly slid downhill. In the ten years from 2006, Lerner played with the club and raised expectations, but then it slowly dawned on the fans that Lerner’s management was weak, and even destructive.
In short, in the near 90 years since he died, there does not seem to have been anyone of the ilk of a Fred Rinder having the vision and sheer ability to lead the club on to greater things. But Fred Rinder had the great advantage that he was there (in the early 1880s) when Villa was just starting its majestic charge to greatness, and he knew – first hand – what it was in the club that had made it great.
At this point, I feel it is time to simply write some words as a review of the overall development in football, especially in how it has affected Aston Villa.
The style of play that Villa adopted way back in 1875-76 with the arrival of George Ramsay was of the Scottish short-passing type, which at the time was an utter revelation to the Midlands. That kind of footballing policy quickly became popular and attracted a big fanbase to the club. The club became famed for their quality of football, improved upon by Archie and Andy Hunter (and Andy was, it seems, a master tactician). As time went on, however, Villa added speed to their game, and at the turn of the 20th century were noted for their speed. They also learnt how to mix the game, so that they would be less predictable. That ability to mix the game was what caught out Newcastle United, the favourites to win the 1905 FA Cup Final. And it was shortly after that time that it so happened that Jimmy Hogan joined Fulham as a player, and where he learnt a great deal about the traditional Scottish game from that club’s Scottish skipper, Goldie. Apparently, Hogan was hungry for advice on the topic and would be a regular visitor to the Goldie household to hear more from his mentor. When Hogan retired as a player before World War One, he decided to make it his job to teach ‘the Continentals’ how to play a system based on the old Scottish method.
So, after Hogan’s 25 years mostly spent abroad, the paths of club (Aston Villa) and coach (Hogan) came together, and seems to have been destined. Unfortunately, however, the Villa’s new chairman of 1936 (Fred Normansell, a fishmonger who was never a footballer as far as I am aware) stated a concern to Hogan: “I’ve no time for these theories about football. Just get the ball in the bloody net.” This chairman’s view seems to have brought to the surface some tension between the usually affable chairman and Fred Rinder who seems to have been the main reason for Hogan coming to the Villa. With the passing on of Rinder, promotion having been achieved and then the onset of World War, it became convenient for Villa to dispose of Hogan and play footie the Normansell way, and this is what seems to have got to Alex Massie and why he left in 1949. But by 1953, it had become clear that Hogan’s approach and methods had far more sense about them than Villa’s Board had given credit for. Hogan came back to become the coach in Villa’s re-created youth policy. But – Villa’s Boards having become perverse by nature – a proper youth development policy was sent packing by the 1960s, despite its proven success.
Since 1968-69, and with the advent of Doug Ellis, youth development again became a matter of primary concern, and that level of priority has stayed that way ever since. But since the early 1990s, the transition of young Villa talent to the first team appears to have slowed down – the old ‘Villa Way’ had slipped aside. And the massive influx of overseas players since about 1996 has taken over the priorities of many big clubs – including the Villa, until the club’s recent relegation and the appearance of Steve Bruce, who seems keen to re-install a British flavour. And – despite a certain amount of doubt by fans about his attitude on the subject – Bruce also appears to be slowly encouraging players from the Academy to make the transition.
Hogan observed all those 80 years ago: “… we have the best players, but it is our style of playing the game that has gone wrong.” And perhaps it is still “wrong”.
Hogan continually warned the FA that English football would be overtaken by the ‘Continentals’, but to no avail. In fact Villa’s old director Charlie Johnstone said much the same thing 25 years before Hogan came to Villa. But in a country where it was believed that keeping a ball away from the players during the week would increase their eagerness to get it on match-day, Hogan’s love of the short pass, exploitation of space, good technique, and hatred of the mindless long ball would always prove difficult to get across. How horrified Hogan would have been to see the whole FA coaching department, under the egregious rule of Long Ball Charlie Hughes, embracing the anti-philosophy of his bete noire, Direct Route Football, which effectively meant indiscriminate use of the long boot out of defence, bypassing midfield.
Charles Hughes was promoted to director of coaching for the Football Association early in 1990. He authored the FA’s official coaching manual and was an early developer of long ball tactics. He began his coaching career with the England national amateur football team and Great Britain and Northern Ireland Olympic football team between 1964-74 winning 48 matches out of 77 and losing few.
Hughes seems to have identified that most goals were scored from three passes or fewer, therefore (he concluded) it was important to get the ball quickly forward as soon as possible. He based this analysis on over one hundred games at all levels, including games involving Liverpool F.C. and the Brazilian national team, as well as many England Youth games. Hughes emphasised the importance of particular areas of the field from where goals were most often scored. He called these areas the ‘POMO’ – Positions Of Maximum Opportunity – and asserted that players would score if the ball was played into the ‘POMO’ enough times. He stressed the importance of set plays and crosses into the penalty area.
Crucially, of course, since the ‘Total Football’ notion of Hogan had never been universally applied in Britain in the last 100 years, Hughes’ findings were somewhat misleading, being mainly based on the football style actually in operation in his area of study!
Many British coaches advocated Hughes’ long-ball philosophy but critics have derided his philosophy for encouraging a generation of players who lack basic technical skills and understanding of different tactical playing strategies. Hughes was described as the ‘professor of kick and rush’, the man portrayed as the purveyor of the long-ball game which is seen as a root cause for England’s decline as an international football power.
But apart from the technical damage done to players and to the game (as Hogan would probably have seen it), entertainment seems to have become a none-runner in the raison d’etre of football. The short passing so much admired by fans in football’s first 50 years as applied by Aston Villa and the other best teams has mostly gone by the board. Results became the major mantra a la Hughes, at the expense of entertainment – and even of skill.
But the concept of ‘Total Football’ has never gone away: the era of Beckenbauer and Cruyff are firm reminders of that, as well as the performances of Barcelona and Spain and Brazil and Argentina over the years. Unfortunately, British football seems to have become some kind of amalgam, with the tilt towards Hughes’s doctrine.
Nevertheless, in an approach towards more professionalism, there have been massive developments within the British game over the last decade. A Villa friend of mine was a member of a small party that recently paid a visit to Tom Bates, the current Head of Performance and Culture within the Club. Tom had only been with AVFC for six months, but he came with a wealth of experience within sport and the corporate sector as a psychologist and performance coach. Once in Tom’s office the visitors saw that on his desk there was the design of a football pitch with lines, centre circle, penalty area etc, along with a magnet. Tom explained that when players go in for their one-to-one they discuss with use of the magnet their own particular performance in the previous match. An open and frank discussion takes place between Tom and the player on what went well and what could have been improved. I wonder if Jimmy McMullan watches on! But – on the other hand – is there now too much control over the player? Is he monitored now to the extent that he cannot think for himself? Is natural ability now stifled or over-manipulated?
Despite the huge amount of radical experimentation and development of ideas in management, coaching, physical training, nutrition and physical rehabilitation over the last few decades, I believe it is still a question of how much a player has within himself to determine how much he can achieve: others can’t do it all for him. Alas (in my view), too many seem to think that coaching and monitoring will be enough and that because of today’s emphasis on teamwork and the target of success, coaching and monitoring are the over-riding requirements.
Interestingly, in 2009 I took a very elderly gentleman to Villa Park; a distant Aston-raised relative of mine who (amazing as it may sound!) had not been down to the ground since the days of Billy Walker, around 1931-33. Back then he lived within the sound of the Holte End roar. Moving home, business and family commitments had not made it possible for him to visit in the interlude, but in 2009 he was feeling his mortality and wanted to make one last visit. He made many observations about the thrilling 3-3 Everton match he saw that day (in 2009), but one key matter was his view that in the 30s there was more emphasis on individual play, not quite so much on teamwork. He also wondered why anticipation was now lacking; to him the modern game seemed to be more about speed and mechanical thinking. Sadly, Ken passed away the following year (2010).
In Ken’s day the fans went to see individual players almost as much as the Villa as a team – and that was true in my day as well. Individuality added the spice to the already good curry. And exceptional play or sportsmanship by an opponent was applauded back then as much as if your own player had done it: it was all part and parcel of sport. But those were the days before hooliganism at football grounds.
I submit that it is down to the player, and he alone, to carry ‘the can’ for his personal success or failure. To get there, I suggest that character is the first qualification after ability. These (to my mind) are the two everlasting needs that should not be modified by the latest fashion. Add the coaching and you should then get the finished article, but only so long as the player’s essential ability is enhanced and not coached out of him. Regrettably, for the sake of getting results, I feel that coaching has effectively moved towards trying to create a standard playing machine (I hesitate to use the word ‘robot’). Players are beginning to look the same as one another. In tandem with the lowering of values in society, the loyalty of football supporters has perhaps been bought to support that project: and sportsmanship (and sport for its own sake) is now pretty much a secondary issue. When was the last time we heard an opponent being applauded at Villa Park? Aggressive tendencies have taken over as I see it.
I would think that William McGregor would be more than a little disappointed with the lack of sportsmanship in today’s game. ‘Mac’ never did like the ankle-tapping that went on in his day. In fact, that aspect of the game has never been eradicated. He’d like the grappling in the goal area even less. And, if we are to accept what the pundits now tell us, the professional foul is perfectly legitimate. Ah, well, success at all costs seems to be the name of the game now. Should I have expected something different?
(c) 2017, by John Lerwill.
The Author
John Lerwill
I'm a Villan of more than 60 years standing and an occasional writer on Villa history. For me there is only one football club worth supporting, but I am now wondering whether I will again see anything like the pageant that was paraded under Ron Saunders or even that by Big Ron and Brian Little. My glass, however, is always half-full! Click here for my Villa website.Comments 39
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Mark
Haha 🙂 fitness wise im ok, but foods a massive weakness to me. Sure im addicted to sugar.
Mrs is all healthy and a veggie, trys and keep me on the right path!!
I dont really like bruce that much! Funny how it can come across on here….we go up id want him sacked!!
Reading up on the loans. Will be a interesting summer.
Bits of noise about vertout coming back but does he want to? Gill has said he wants to stay in spain. Goalini has played once for atalanta against the bottom team. Tisch and mccormack cant get a kick for forest!
John
Thanks for another interesting leader.
Yes, Ellis, to his credit, did get and keep Villa financially stable, but he seems to have lacked faith in his managers. His ambition to actually win something big is also questionable, though Villa nearly won the league during Ellis’ stewardship of the Villa. I remember Ellis saying his first priority was the survival of Villa for future generations. Can’t argue with that. Would have been nice to win a title or FA Cup, though.
Under ellis we did enough at times to be on the verge of being very very good but would never build on it to kick on.
Andrew,
Yes, Ellis managed to do a bit better than most of his forebears since WW2, but a lot of that was to do with money from the (then) new PL and then putting the club on the stock market. After that Villa fizzled out, hence Gregory’s departure. And Taylor’s (Mk 2) as well, saying that the club needed reform.
There has been a lack of a visionary in the club since Rinder. But maybe the Doc may prove to be the one to become Rinder Mk. 2 – or Mk. 2 plus, as Rinder certainly didn’t do anything for the club with his own money. He was only a Birmingham Corporation employee!
good interview with Johnson.
recognised his early form was patchy but hasn’t played competitive footy for a year…then chucked in at villa park! funny given a bit of patience and time is getting better 🙂
if the 3mill price tag is real we should do everything to get him in.
young English keeper…could be able to sell him for 15mill in 3 years.
Keith wyness be talking. said again will only sign 2 or 3 players. very much wants stability…said no excuses for next season, must go up.
ross may have a future if he comes back in the summer fresh and good attitude.
andrew
wyness talks a lot of crap too, said earlier this week we are bigger than spurs everton
any one who wants to see how a footballer should behave look up james mcclean and foyle down syndrome football team
james
we are bigger than everton & spurs.
we have just been run into the ground where as they have been run correctly.
spurs admittedly have lucked out on pochitino…before that went through a few managers without luck.
it was not that long ago we were finishing above spurs and everton regularly!
defoe also does a lot of good. struck up a great relationship with the poorly young lad.
infact most of the footballers do do a lot of good…just never gets mentioned! only the bad stuff!
andrew
even mon good years everton and spurs where up there and stayed there we are years away from both clubs now, spurs have new stadium on go everton finally look like they going to start theirs we have spent 80m and sit mid table fizzy pop league, both have managers we can only dream off ,players we can only dream off, all i see is a nightmare never ending
andrew
on defoe that is fantastic what he has given that young lad,something special , and even joe hart stepping aside to let defoe lead out the english team, nice gesture
JG
Well if you’re aware you’r dreaming when you’re having a nightmare, what’s the problem?
The whole issue you & Andrew seem to be arguing about, is a bit too much like “my k*** is bigger than your k***” for me, which was my take on the original issue.
If being a big club is all about money, position & power then who really cares?
I certainly don’t.
If it’s about the quality of the heart of the club, it’s fans, it’s history, it’s significance internationally, it’s ground, it’s facilities & it’s culture, then we are at least as big a club as those two, & as a fan I’d say even more so.
But I’d personally rather concentrate on our club, not waste my time worrying about others.
Where we are is where we are, so I’d rather focus on that than wind myself up.
Following the villa can be depressing as any fan knows, but I for one am not a fan so I can be depressed.
Footballers do a lot of charity work, & so they should as they seem to think our club is a charity for them sometimes.
The significance of a club to the community can be profound, & I think we have let it slip a bit.
Spurs have been holding a week of football related activity at a college in Hertfordshire up the A10 for a number of years, which cost them serious money, & it will come back to them.
They sponsor their poorer fans, & it is related to the schools in the area.
We really need to catch up as Jl said in his article, & AV have started the process it seems, but you have to look at the financial difference between Brum & London for the last 40 years of slow decline.
We have
Andrew
Typo ‘we have’ it surprised me when I checked what I posted, there seems to be a ghost on my keyboard.
What team do you think we will have against the web feet folk, as I can’t get my head round it as we haven’t confirmation of the injured list yet.
If Taylor doesn’t play I can see it being Green where Amavi is, but not a lot of other changes.
Is Baker fit yet?
the jedi might be too knackered but might start then a sub.
I haven’t heard of any fresh injuries.
iang
i dont know what your problem is but last time i looked matt owned this site, when i post you are on moaning about it copying and pasting even last week i mentioned a lad that had just died you took over half post left that bit out, just because dor can put it better doesn t mean i and others can t post without know alls running it down
JG
You misread & misunderstood my post, as I was trying to say about the whole thing about villa being a bigger club than spurs or everton that was a wind up argument that came from the internet that you were caught up in with Andrew
It was that I was referring to not you.
I cracked a joke about dreams & nightmares, if you didn’t see it as a joke then understand that I was not having a crack, just sharing a sense of humour hoping for a positive feedback.
Oh well you can’t win them all.
I don’t check in advance with humour as it’s impossible, if you don’t find it funny then ignore it.
If I’ve set you off it is not intentional from my side.
Why attack – “know alls”, “you’re not the site owner”, is a bit uncalled for, but as you like.
I copy & paste the bit that I want to comment on, & it doesn’t negate anything else.
As for the length of posts, as you say there are far more skilfull writers on here than me or you, so we get what comes out, & if it isn’t to your taste you can comment like anyone else, or not.
I haven’t got a problem with you, so please continue posting.
I didnt think me and james was in an argument! :). No doubt toffees and spurs are better right now but bigger club…,if we can go up and get it right under the dr we can blow everton and spurs away :).
James
Yeah its a wonderfull thing what defoe is doing. All these footballers have alot of power to do good, would love to have the profile and money to change lives like they can.
To be honest over the years of my time supporting villa we have been about same level as spurs and toffess. Always liked both clubs. Remind me of villa.
Until we got shit
Lang
Id say team for norwich could see hogan starting, meaning adomah rw. Lets pray bree starts over hutton.
No idea when jedi got back from oz? With us playing tues too id not risk him but is baker fit?
Will amavi play lw with jack and green fit?
Options.
Andrew
I’m getting really shit at being clear, cos the argument was what the internet introduced not you & JG. To me it is an artificial argument designed to provoke, a wind up, & I was commenting on what I thought of the whole game that draws people into a non argument or discussion.
I could have been clearer, but rest assured I have no problem with anyone here.
But sometimes I disagree with what someone writes, & am often direct which is why we’re on a blog, so we can post saying so.
If someone takes this as a personal attack instead of about their expressed view then maybe they should just answer back on topic instead of owning the criticism.
You on the other hand have a gift of being non provocative, which is probably more useful in many ways, but it takes all sorts thank goodness.
Maybe we’ll hear something from Bruce tomorrow.
Andrew
The spurs one week live in summer camp at Haileybury College with good sports facilities, was for kids, not older fans to be clear
It is something the club should look into I think, as it cements the younger fans from all backgrounds together, & they get fit.
Wouldn’t hurt the club to fork out for something like this.
Personally I’ve always found the spuds annoying, but am fond of Everton & their fans.
It all depends whether Taylor is in any state to play I suppose.
If not it could be Hogan codger & Adomah up front.
Or even codger & Hogan up front with Green on left wing.
It would be nice to see Bree in a 442
IanG: “Personally I’ve always found the spuds annoying”
Yes! They’ve been annoying Villa ever since their Southern League days early in the 20th c.
Mind you, you had to admire the Spurs teams of the 1960s, but they were definitely lucky to get away with their win against us at Wembley in ’71.
Iang: “am fond of Everton & their fans.”
Yes, they – the club and the fans – are a good lot. I had a connection with them a little while back on the matter of William McGregor. They were so interested in Mac: very appreciative of footie history that lot.
John, If my memory serves me well, Spurs have always been a bit of bogey side for us where cups are concerned.
I remember as a youngster, maybe 1962 we had a good run in the FA Cup beating mostly lower league sides then going to White Hart Lane and getting beat 2-0 I think, on a very muddy pitch. Goals from Bobby Smith?
They seem to have done us a few times since then. I don’t recall knocking them out of a cup competition…..ever.
I think we’ll give Norwich a tanking tomorrow, Kodg and Scottie …..the goal harvesters…
Interesting to read Steve Bruce see’s himself being retired in 5 years, well, he is coming up 56.
I see him getting us back into the Prem next season, a year of consolidation and established back at the top level, then he’ll knock it on the head, which is more or less what he stated. I think thats the sort of development we’re looking at. We’re not going to be challenging for a top six spot for a long time yet, 4 years at least.
We’ve fallen a long way behind to the point where the top boys, Man U, Arsenal, Spurs, L’pool, Everton, Man City will all have stadiums with 60,000 capacities, or there about. That puts VP with its 42k capacity in the shade.
The journey continues,
Arch
Archie,
Yes, even Newcastle get over the 50,000.
We got beat by Spurs in both ’61 and ’62 in the Cup … the first at VP. I remember the Brum press reckoning that Villa would show up and give Spurs something to think about, but Spurs proved to be far too god.
Yes, they’ve certainly been a bogey side. But – amazingly – in Villa’s relegation season of 66-67 it was 3-3 at VP after Villa had gone into a 3-1 lead at h-t. And then there was that amazing 5-5 result at WHL in 66, when Tone scored 4. Villa were 1-5 at h-t.
About Villa’s development, yes, even the Doc seems to have toned down his expectations. He now thinks about the same as you it would appear.
Ian G
It’s all good mate, no probs with anyone on here.
Sounds like Green might not make it, bench? RHM is training. Bench? No word on Jedi and sounds like tayor will play. bruce says he has to get on with it. Baker fit.
Think it will be 442 but hope to see bree rb and jack or green lw.
The major thing I’m worried about is if the players go on holiday mode! Nothing to play for. need to stay motivated.
hmmm we have 8 games left. 5 of them are at home!
tell you what if we win tomoz, tues night and the gap off the playoffs is 6 or 7 points ill believe!!
Baker’s fit apparently, but too soon for Green
Grealish, well I can see the Jedi starting in midfield giving way to Grealish or Amavi depending on the situation. As you say Andrew, it would be nice to see Bree as he hasn’t had the chance to sort an understanding with Adomah yet.
Amavi, Grealish & Elphick probably on the bench.
Gardner seems to be 3rd choice.
JL/Archie
Yes that team from the 60’s was a good team to watch with some good players, but annoying & a bit smug, which is one of their characteristics it seems to me, even now.
They’re on a bit of a fortunate time currently due to a good manager, but their owner won’t let them get bigger than him, so not to the top I feel, then down a peg or two again.
Hopefully we should be up there with them by then
The question is, currently gross spend to compete in the Prem seems to be in the order of £100m. So what will it be in 2018 when I expect promotion….
I don’t see this squad downing tools the remainder of the season. There will be an expectation to finish strongly. If they do go on holiday it’ll cost SB his job so I don’t see it happening.
John, you still out there, a question; I never really saw Tony Hateley play apart from when Chelsea took us apart 2-6 at VP, Bobby Tambling got four that day, I think. And big Tone got our two. TH’s goals kept us in the old div one in those days, I’m informed. So how come he never kicked on at Liverpool, Chelsea, Cov, etc lots of big money moves, but no stability, how come, in your opinion.
Arch
Archie: “And big Tone got our two. “
Ah … sorry Arch, we mustn’t forget wee Johnny MacLeod … he got one of ’em.
Sad day that. Repeated too often last season.
Archie,
Tony’s style suited Villa to the ground but it didn’t suit the more modern style that his new and better teams played, I think Arch.
Mk
Are you on holiday mate?
I ask also because I find it very difficult to post when I’m not at home, as I use a computer or pad, & need internet.
Hope all is well with you
Great stuff, JL…
Match preview up now. COYVB.