The following is a substantial extract from an article written in 1902 by William McGregor, the ‘Father of the League’: the founder of league football. A businessman, he became connected to Aston Villa in 1877 and was greatly appreciated for his avuncular presence and calming influence at the Club.
In 1886 he was elected chairman of Aston Villa after sterling work the previous season in saving the Villa from extinction, and followed this up with leading Villa to their first-ever FA Cup triumph the next year, 1887. Standing down from his official Villa connections, in 1888 he worked hard to create the Football League after years of sowing the seeds of the idea in the ears of club chairmen and managers.
McGregor was fully involved in the Football League and the FA until his death in 1911.
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All rights reserved: No copying nor distribution without the consent of John Lerwill.
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This is one of a series of summer articles from the archives that I have obtained with the object of writing a book on the Villa. Those articles I’m publishing here will not be included ‘verbatim’ in my book, but I thought it may be worthwhile to publish some of them on Aston Villa Life as an insight into the thinking back then – of 100 years ago and more.
These articles are published ‘as is’ with only a small attempt on my part at being helpful by the insertion of a comment or two.
Doubtless, the reader will find some of the language quite archaic, but I nevertheless hope that you persevere through the article and extract a good idea from it and grasp how evolutionary all the thinking was in those days. And also how much thought was expended on how to improve the game.
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FOOTBALL: DO PROFESSIONALS STUDY & PRACTISE THE GAME?
By William McGregor.
I have for long contended that the football professional does not give the game that strict care and attention which the average man gives to his business. Why he fails to do this it is difficult to see. I am told that the American baseball professional is a wonderful fellow. I remember some of them years ago, and although we did not get the cream of the American players over here, I am bound to admit that they were remarkable men. Then look at the excessive zeal a golfer displays to make himself proficient. The typical golfer is a perfect slave to his game. In addition to being a slave in the accepted sense of the word, he brings to bear upon it all the brain and acumen he possesses. I wonder what the football professional would say if you told him that there are hundreds of golfers of all grades, who, whatever the weather is, or wherever they are, manage to get an hour of putting practice every day in the year. I am not telling fairy-tales; I know two people who will take out their lanterns on a winter’s night after a hard day’s work, clear away the snow, and have an hour’s putting practice.
The football professional would laugh if you told him this; the pity is that he cannot see that the laugh would be misplaced. I do not think, broadly speaking, that the twin passions of cricket and football receive such zealous attention at the hands of their professors as their merits entitle them to receive. There would not be so many poor fielders and poor throwers on the cricket field if men who follow the game had the golfing spirit in them. There would not be so many indifferent shots and so many men who are what we term one-footed in football as there in football today if they were imbued with the same spirit. The charge I have to bring against professional footballers is that they do not think the game out sufficiently. I have mentioned this incident before, but it is so appropriate that I cannot refrain from referring to it here.
The old Aston Villa team, in the days of Archie and Andy Hunter, used so make a genuine study of the game, and it was that which enabled them to give the go-by to so many organisations which started before them and which for some years enjoyed superior advantages. Andy Hunter was in my employ for a time, and I have seen him making charts illustrative of what he and certain other men were going to do in [(say) the] next Saturday’s Cup-tie.
Eli Davis, the old Aston Villa left wing man, [could centre the ball in a way] that the game ever knew. But like most men of exceptional ability, he had his failing, and Davis would insist upon running into a corner from which he either could not centre the hall advantageously or in which he lost it. Now Andy Hunter, who played outside right, would insist upon Davis centering it at a certain point, and in order to make the latter’s task easier, a flag was always placed at a certain position on the touchline, and when. Davis reached that flag he knew that he must part with the ball. Andy Hunter and the other players knew that he would centre, consequently they were in position, onside; and, as you may imagine, many a goal resulted from the fact that they were prepared for a definite course of action.
I have heard of the old [Preston] North End team studying their game round a billiard table. Many of my readers will recall the famous Newport fifteen… They were not exceptionally strong forward considering that they usually pitted eight men against the nine which constituted the pack in an English club, but the eight used to rout the nine and give away a great deal of weight. It was all a question of finesse and cleverness. The .forwards used to meet in the Newport gymnasium, and … they went through certain evolutions; the result was that their heeling out and wheeling the scrums created a kind of revolution in Rugby football. It was purely a question of skill; there were evidences of the use of their brains in anything they did. I could multiply instances in this regard, but it would serve no useful purpose to do so.
The one man in an Association football team who seems to have made a study of his art is the goalkeeper. I admit that recent legislation has greatly simplified his work. It has given him protection which war denied to the old custodians, and I have no doubt it has been the means of influencing certain men to take up the study of goalkeeping who might, under other conditions, have preferred another position in the field. Goalkeepers are infinitely more scientific to-day than they were years ago. There is scarcely a club in England which is not possessed of at least one high-class goalkeeper, and some of them have two and even three men fully capable of doing their club credit in first-class football
Then, of course there has been a great improvement in combination. There is an understanding among forwards to-day which did not obtain years ago; in fact, it was the wonderful idea of combination which North End had which was mainly responsible for the brilliancy of their record. But this attention to combination has been greatly overdone. The footballer has come to regard himself as a mere unit in the composition of the eleven. His chief duty, he believes, is to subordinate his individuality for the general welfare of his side. Up to a point this is a sound view to take: the man who did not take it would not be an acceptable member of a team. But there is no conceivable reason why, because a man’s first duty is to master the art of combination, he should neglect the means of making himself skilful in the various departments of football play. A man can know when and how to pass without degenerating into a mere passing .machine.
The warped ideas of the public have been largely responsible for the demeanour of the present-day player. Let a man keep the ball for more than a second or two, and on some grounds be is positively howled at. The public, who are not in the main great footballers, seem unable to realise that possibly a player may have an idea in his head which they are not capable of appreciating. The public has a mania for passing, but passing has been over-done. Passing as a means to an end is of all devices the most profitable. But there comes a time in the game when the ball has been taken to within a reasonable distance of goal, and there is a need for sharp and decisive action, but we still see the ball transferred from foot to foot. The man who has a sound knowledge of the game realizes that the means which were rightly used for bringing the ball into that position have now no real value. What is wanted is an electrifying dribble or rush of the individual player, who will, by his individual skill, beat the back and furnish himself with what is known in football parlance as an open goal.
But how many players of the present day know how to make such an opening? Very few indeed. The average player has learned to distrust his own ability, and as often as not, instead of bursting through the defence, he passes the ball to a player less advantageously placed than he is himself. Now I call that rank nonsense, and players ought to realise that it is such. There is a great future for the man who, while holding his own with the the rest of the forwards in knowledge of the ethics of passing, can seize on the ball twenty-five yards from goal and burst clean through. He will not always score, but there will be a big chance of his doing so. I have seen games in which neither goalkeeper has had a really difficult shot to save, and yet the papers have spoken about the fine defence of the rival custodians. There has been a great falling off in the quality of the shooting. and it has arisen from the far that men have not sufficient confidence in their own abilities. This tendency to pass the ball to someone else is often the first sign that man has passed from the effective to the veteran stage. I have known old players, famous in their day, who, when their abilities began to wane, positively would not shoot. Why? Simply because they feared being laughed at by the crowd for missing.
How is it that we never see shooting of the kind which Whateley. the Aston Villa International, or Kerr, the famous Scottish centre[-forward], used to regularly indulge in? The ball used to whiz in, never rising an inch from the turf and go through goal at incredible speed. One such shot is worth a dozen weak attempts. It is, I believe, because men do not practice shooting sufficiently. Neither do they practice taking the ball at all sorts of angles. Scotch players practice more than English players do, and they are much cleverer in the art of trapping the ball. They keep the man off with their hips and then work the ball round him very skillfully. But they are usually much slower than the English players, and thereto their ability in this respect is discounted. Then men might practice taking corner and penalty kicks: the latter are often indifferently taken. There ought also to be a thorough understanding in regard to throwing-in, and a plan of campaign in regard to the taking of free-kicks. It is not unusual to meet a man, a salaried exponent of the game, who knows absolutely nothing of the art of throwing-in.
What we want are half hour practice games. Men do not want to be run off their legs and become surfeited with football, but short half-hour games would be very useful. Candidly, I do not know when men learn any new tricks; some of them never learn anything new. Some never attempt any serious practice. Nine out of ten would be better players if they were more expert in dribbling, and dribbling can only be learned in actual practice. A well-known Midland enthusiast [NOTE: it was probably Charlie Johnstone] once came in for plenty of ridicule because he suggested that a number of barrels should be placed on the Aston Villa ground at Perry Barr, and that the players should practice dribbling round them. Now ridicule will kill anything, but there is more in that idea than those who satirised it would be willing to admit.
Men ought to practice dribbling, in fact, they ought to practice everything in which they are not an expert. It is because I like to see experts that I object to the restriction of wages. I believe we should get better players if men were paid in accordance with their market value. Still, the men are well paid at present and every player should devote himself to his game as earnestly as possible, and not be content to merely figure in the ruck. This £4 a week wage [at a time when a skilled worker earned less than half that amount], has, I fear, caused many to be content to remain average rather than aim to come expert performers.
The laws of the game are as a closed book to most professionals: all their knowledge of them is traditional, being handed down from one generation to another.
The Author
John Lerwill
I'm a Villan of more than 60 years standing and an occasional writer on Villa history. For me there is only one football club worth supporting, but I am now wondering whether I will again see anything like the pageant that was paraded under Ron Saunders or even that by Big Ron and Brian Little. My glass, however, is always half-full! Click here for my Villa website.Comments 129
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JL
Thanks for the article, as true today as it was then.
MK
The Huff post vids just happened to have no intrusive interviewers shaping what the people said, & they just let the people speak.
A lot comes out of that which probably would not otherwise.
Corruption comes in many forms, but after listening to the council leader talk of blaming the tenants for there being no sprinklers, instead of safety procedures governing it, that takes the biscuit as he is an example of who created the current rules..
It is clear that there is a malaise in the country which is a form of corruption, which comes from too much power which affects the poorer people in an unbalanced unfair way.
This is an endemic experiential & political reality not an opinion or a party issue.
The only new thing about it is the extent of the obvious callousness being publicly aired by those responsible.
Time for change?
MK
The building industry has always been prone to corrupt practices & half measures, & this without tarring everybody with the same brush.
But the current pattern mostly originated with the advent of sub contractors who have always varied tremendously & were also less well policed at times with too much clout to the worker’s detriment.
Money seems to have become more important than people’s lives, & it seems to have become more accepted with most of the current crop of leaders.
Which is why the shock!
IanG,
But the greater shock perhaps is that while the cost of refurbishing Grenfell was into the millions, the additional cost to making the cladding fire-proof was just £6,250. There is clearly a very basic flaw here that someone in a seat of responsibility didn’t bother to check how much difference it would have been, safety-wise, to spend that £6k. Adding to the thought that many people are mainly concerned about their end-of-month paypacket.
Perhaps human values are missing in people’s education these days.
… and that – seriously – brings up the question of education and how much it is being downgraded towards making money rather than what contributes to making a better society.
Click to link: May-be The P.M. Will Now Heed The Wakening Call
JL
Cannot agree more
IanG- sub-contractors are the problem eh? sorry mate that is the majority of the work force because firms do not want to employ and pay staff and all it entails. I am self employed and get no holiday sick or money if the job is cancelled the day before. Being employed does not somehow boost your competency, usually it means your happy to stroll about doing not very much, take 3 breaks, and moan at how much the sub contractors earn who are busting a gut everyday and are dropped like a stone when it suits.
I work with many Asian builders and some polish/Russian they predominately want to deal cash, same with my mates garage, makes you wonder how much tax is lost doesn’t it? the brits are watched like hawks though, some deal cash but most don’t in my experience.
There’s plenty wrong out there and I agree JL its time for education to teach Philosophy and control over our thoughts and emotions, I don’t think the majority can tell the two apart. Having a thought and it pissing you off does not make it true. Empathy I am afraid is lacking other than to show how nice you are, so much is for show these days.
Mk
You should learn to read as I did not say that.
I was talking about differences in approaches viv a vis corrupted working practices & how some particular ones started with the advent of sub contractors in the 1970s & how it is all related, culminating in the present system in which you also appear to be a victim.
First read properly before knee jerk reactions that are offensive & merely show that there was something in you that triggered it off.
You talk about empathy so show some!
IanG- sorry if I misread you, but what is the current Pattern? you and JL are the cryptic brothers. Never said I had any empathy did I either? I said many do it for show.
Of course the fire is a tragedy that could of possibly been averted but how many tower blocks have gone up? I cannot honestly think of any that stand out in my lifetime? could be wrong. Now its a political weapon? There are house fires every week and people die, no sprinklers there either. I guess blame will be apportioned as it always is. Houses everywhere are built cheaply generally, see it everywhere and I work all over. Take the recent political climate away from this tragedy and would it be seen differently?
Also it would seem you have taken offence to what I have written which has triggered something in you too 🙂 You made a statement that sub contractors vary, well so do builders on the books. In no way am I a victim I chose to do what I do at this time, now that’s offensive to me 😉
Mark: “how many tower blocks have gone up?”
True, but we do have the Australian and Middle East (Dubai?) precedents on the matter of the cladding.
And I understand both the US and Germany don’t allow the cladding used at Grenfell.
Mark: “Take the recent political climate away from this tragedy and would it be seen differently?”
That is a fair point, but we have to take it also in the context that the last 7 years have been too much for the vulnerable – have we forgotten about Bedroom Tax when insufficient alternative housing was available?
The situation is a result of an accumulation of matters.
As I said in the above article (link provided):
[In] a pre-Election Question Time programme, the Brexit Minister (David Davis) said that “things like that [vital public services] have to wait for economic growth”. It says a lot, doesn’t it? And, of course, he wouldn’t dare suggest that some re-distribution of wealth might alleviate the issue: it is the forever growing gulf between the rich and the poor that is at the bottom of the present crisis of government.
And I suppose that Davis would call safety concerns at Grenfell as just “things” to be paid for when the economy is sufficiently lining the pockets of the rich. Or perhaps he – in his state of sleep – just assumed that the country was running well enough for him to be able to utter phrases like that.
Interesting quote, I think:
The previous government, between 2010-2015, they had one-in-two out rule. What that means is that for every regulation they decided to impose, they insisted on removing two. And the then-housing minister, who is now the immigration minister, in fact, specifically, when he was challenged as to whether he should put a rule in place that said that sprinkler systems should be fit in the buildings like this, as they already have to be in Germany, Wales, in Scotland, etc., his justification for not putting this rule in place was that they had this totally ideological idea that for every regulation they imposed they had to remove two. That was his specific justification. If there had been a sprinkler system in this building, despite all the other massive failings – that would’ve stopped people dying, and that didn’t happen.
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/392758-london-protests-tower-fire/
Mark
No problem.
The black market has been there for ever, but it does keep some genuine people afloat.
The advent of subbies basically was a ploy companies used to make one more entity between them & any retribution for such things as unsafe practices as well asa way of not having to pay for things like worker’s benefits which kept people alive, & the modern equivalent is the 0% contract with the minimum wage.
Subbies then were also payed well & on the books workers wages went to the minimum for a 6 day week so they were barely above the dole.
The only difference since then is the proliferation of immigrants & reverse racism & the confusion & unfair & unsafe practices that come from that, that has been taken full advantage of by with the american corporate method.
It is a systemic problem not just the building industry based on greed & fear of losing the job if you say anything.
The latter is brainwashing resulting in the situation now where no one is responsible unless a scapegoat is needed.
As JL said it is an educational problem as even the best educated have reverted back to the thirties in their modus operendi, to use the rest for their benefit.
Now we have a plague of problems resulting in that.
You only have to look at the tory interviews to see this as they squirm to get off the hook & go back to what they have been doing for the past 40 years, & I also put Blair & many of the new labour in that category.
To go against the flow takes courage, & I remember the skulduggery done to ucat in the 70’s who suffered the full weight of the establishment as they tried to hold back the rape & pillage of the building workers, once the companies had bribed their way to huge sums of money. so then the workers were too expensive for their greed.
Unfortunately being able to see this doesn’t earn anyone a living, or stop anyone dying in a tower block fire, unless it’s a lot of people coming together [preferably peacefully].
Even the firemen have had the retirement age put up to 60, & I can’t see many 60 yr olds climbing up a burning tower block for long carrying loads of heavy gear, especially when there is no relif due to the cuts closing fire stations & sacking many firemen [even more here than London].
So let’s not fight amongst ourselves, but I am sick of the huge tithe set by the establishment which doesn’t seem to apply to them, as they put business between them & the people as a buffer to get the blame which is not always deserved.
See what happens when football [the opium of the people] is missing.
JL is not being that vague, but one has to first get out of the mire to explore.
Cheap labour in the building industry has been with us since the second world war. Sub- contractors were supposed to bring about the end of the “Lump”, where workers were picked up off the streets every day, except “signing-on ” days, by registering them, and without the relevant piece of paper, a 765, could not work on site, or it could be closed down and the main contractor fined. This all came about in the early 70’s when the building strike lasted for over six months, and property prices doubled.
What happened to the 765, I do not know, but it just seemed to disappear, perhaps through common market regulations.
No-one can blame people for taking advantage of the “cash only ” society, which has created the huge losses of revenue to the exchequer, similar to that in Greece and Spain.
Mark
“you and JL are the cryptic brothers. Never said I had any empathy did I either? I said many do it for show.”
Well said. Lol. Many are doing it for show. All these celebrities et al using this tragedy to show the rest of us how enlightend they are.
What good has Sadiq Khan done for London? He says London is the safest global city in the world and nobody should worry. What a load of nonsence. Tommy Robinson would make a better mayor. Seems to me apathy is Britain’s biggest problem. The PC is ridiculous, not only in Britain, but in the west in general.
JL
Nice article on William McGregor’s views. Thankyou.
“This £4 a week wage [at a time when a skilled worker earned less than half that amount], has, I fear, caused many to be content to remain average rather than aim to come expert performers.”
I’ve often thought the same about WM’s sentiment here. He said earlier that he doesn’t agree with the fixed wage of the time because he believes players should be paid in “accordance with their market value.” However, players in general are far overpaid. I believe Villa have been one of the worst affected by this mindset. We’ve had far too many players that are happy to remain average while on money the rest of us can only dream of.
I doubt William McGrgor would have tolerated the likes of Gabby 2015-16. According to WM’s philosophy, Gabby should be practising his finishing and goal shooting day in day out. He’s lost confidence and when was last time he scored from outside the box? I think lack of confidence leads to loss of form and loss of form can lead to depression and a greater chance of injury. Is Gabby symbolic of a wider apathy at Villa and British society in general? Gabby is trying again, but can he overcome his constant injury problems? Villa is waking up. But it’s taken a Chinaman to come in and wake the lion.
PP
It was still there in the 60’s but less significant.
If you had no money in the middle 60’s you had to line up in John Bright street outside the DSS office every day for your 2s 9p so you could eat & look for a job.
Depriving the exchequer was a national sport by then, as it was a time of plenty, but more importantly it took a lot of effort to comply for small amounts.
Especially as you could leave one job at 10 & find another one to start the next morning.
The larger scale was criminal & similar to the war & the spivs as I recall, & the larger scale still was just corruption that morphed into pure bribery for companies like Bryants who had councillors in their pocket, & got very rich that way.
When the gravy train slowed down the lump reappeared.
Institutional corruption is still alive & well today, & it takes longer to unravel as it is more complex.
It was a strange time as in 1967 you could only take £17 out of the country, which was over a weeks wages for many people [but less in the building trade].
The problem in the building trade was oversight, as is now, otherwise if that was lax it was too late to change anything.
As an example I worked for Otis lifts in Tricorn house for a while, & we had to work to between 64 & 32 thou. but then discovered the shaft was 6ft out when we got there, & when we finished the lift journey was enough to make anyone seasick.
No one said anything or they would be blacklisted from working as being an activist & followed round by special branch.
Who needed that!
lana
Sadiq Khan is going a better job for native Londoners of all castes & creeds than Boris ever did, & he’s only just started.
Boris also worked hand in hand with & for the interest of the rich, hand in hand with the tory government, which is why half of central London is owned by absent foreign multi millionaires & ordinary Londoners can’t afford to live where they were raised.
We live in a multi cultural reality as most so called immigrants in Brum were born here & are foreigners anywhere else.
Many are also Villa supporters.
Their response in London at the tower fire was real & highly commendable & saved lives & changed a lot of people’s attitude & helped bring everyone together as human beings [unlike the government].
London has always had more temporary foreigners living there than anywhere else, & immigrants have been an important part of it’s history for 2000 years.
Anyway better brainless support from celebrities than no support, as grating as it can be.
It’s been a very painful time, & still is.
The times they are a changing -about time!
lana
Terrorists we’re used to in Brum, & we got bombed by the IRA & before that by the Germans.
People dying because of institutional uncaring mismanagement is even worse, & more people died in that fire in one go than terrorists have managed to kill in London.
Apathy can be a result of stuff rather than a cause.
Which brings me back neatly to last season.
IanG
Well, I’ve got no problem with multi-culturalism. I live in a similar society and have visited Brum and London on more than a few occasions. Immigrants I’ve helped, have told me I’m an international, multi-cultural guy. Which is actually true. I use two languages on a daily basis and have lived 12 of the last 15 years in north-east Asia. I’m a mongrel from way back.
I think the real beef I have is with what you call “dogma.” Especially when groups use intimidation, lies and violence to get their way. I also think that religious and ideological interests shouldn’t have their own courts, especially when those courts support actions that are contrary to British law. I appreciate and support equal rights in the eyes of the (one) law for all. That said, love the multi-culturalism, when it works.
Sounds like you’ve had a hard life, Ian. And Villa…
Iana: “What good has Sadiq Khan done for London?”
Well, we have rellies in London and they have praise for him. Far more in tune than that Trump lookalike! 😉
IanG,
I liked your comment on Gabby.
Sorry! I meant Iana, not Iang on the point of Gabby!
Interesting bit here about Edgar Cayce and his predictions about Russia:
http://www.inspireactachieve.com/mysteries/80-years-ago-edgar-cayce-predicted-putins-role-stopping-ww3/
Aristotle: “common sense is where consciousness originates.”
So if a society is lacking in common sense, and there’s little to no conscience, morality, empathy, consciousness, creativity, taste, discernment or love, how does one propose to govern such a population? This no doubt created a quandary for the rulers of large populations in the past, and clearly still presents governance challenges today. […]
To find oneself, one must first lose oneself, and so humanity has intentionally (if not consciously), led itself astray. The capacity for auto-correction is built into the natural system of the Earth and undoubtedly woven into the very fabric of cosmic existence itself. And yet in order to auto-correct, one must first dare to walk down dark paths leading to destinations unknown.
http://www.wakingtimes.com/2013/10/21/waking-vladimir-putins-uncommon-common-sense/
IanG- no worries mate the time is ripe for change, not enough for my liking. I would like to see the end of technology for profit especially when it harms the environment and people. what I don’t like is the way its happening. For instant Mr Corbyn who has many good points is said to be very principled, well he personally wanted out of the EU now he’s taking one for the party and using high emotion to further his parties aims with people wanting to stay in. As for attacking council offices with frightened workers in whats that about? certain sections of the left does like a bit of emotion fueled violence.
JL- Spoke to my best mate last night who sits on a panel at Whitehall 2-3 times a year as an expert on renewable’s and heating etc. He said the panels used are used throughout the EU and are safe by EU law. Every country can put there own twist on these and Germany are the only ones that don’t use it. He said the greater standards are the ISO standards not EU ones and when we are out we can align with those. He also said a lot of EU standards are built on our British standards as are many of the employment laws etc, people forget what we brought to the EU thats why when I hear how bad it will be I have to laugh.
On housing, how is 300,000 extra people a year a good idea? we’re building everywhere to meet demand that cannot possibly be met, if we continue this on this over populated Island then standards will drop as councils will have to budget, there is not enough in the pot to go around.
Another friend told me that IBM have a computer voice now that you cannot tell apart from human and it will be rolled out in forward facing rolls. The knock on effect will be job losses and add the advancements in robotics? we have a problem on our hands way bigger than the Tories.
I think we missed our big chance in 2008, that was the time to push for change if ever there was one.
It would seem the councils were given the option to implement the recommendations. The Government didn’t want the councils to be able to ask them for more money.
The Lakanal Report can be read from here:
https://www.change.org/p/implement-the-recommendations-of-the-lakanal-report/u/20582624?j=88774&sfmc_sub=165434045&l=32_HTML&u=15668050&mid=7259882&jb=26&utm_medium=email&utm_source=88774&utm_campaign=petition_update&sfmc_tk=tpRuRYx8qMQguMXAdWD4UlY98PdUR2lR2j31YTpsW5R40cSfGllDDbnd%2f5LBLOV8
Mark,
Hammond says that the Grenfell cladding is banned in the UK:
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/06/18/grenfell-cladding-banned-uk-hammond
Here’s a fuller report on Hammond etc:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/18/cladding-on-grenfell-tower-banned-in-uk-says-philip-hammond
jl- I can only tell what I was told John, the fact they are investigating it seems they are unsure or it would be clear cut and further more how was a banned material brought in or bought in the first place? banned suggests its illegal but it is apparently ok on buildings under 10m in height so it is banned only in application. Someone is for the chop thats for sure but can’t see how this is a cabinet blunder I’m sure they don’t order the materials. As I previously said moneys tight they will cut corners tragically this time. Suggests someone somewhere got the nod to use it. I wonder how many other buildings have it on?
what I don’t like is the recent attitude that seems to be that if you vote and lose then just ask for another go until you win. I am no lover of the Tories I voted labour anyway (pointless where I live) as I liked parts of his manifesto even though it would have been a huge expense. May won and got the popular vote so it is spitting in the face of 42% of the population to insist we go again, just like Brexit.
Mark: “Suggests someone somewhere got the nod to use it. I wonder how many other buildings have it on?”
It seems that the same contractor has installed cladding on a number of other towers in London, for starters.
“he recent attitude that seems to be that if you vote and lose then just ask for another go until you win.”
I don’t think that’s a fair statement in this situation. The Tories did not get a majority and their proposed arrangement with the DUP does not seem workable to me. For long, at any rate.
When there’s been a hung Parliament in the past, another election has always been the outcome after a short period. I think that’s what has to happen here otherwise there’ll not be a proper government of the country. If the Tories were willing to work with Labour or Liberals it might be different, but that seems off the agenda.
reading about the tower tragedy , corners have been cut per usual with all building work both in uk plus ireland to a horrible effect,yet bosses as with bankers all walk scot free usually with pay off
one of residents questioned 10m spend, he said the lifts which cost only in the 50/60 thousand range wherent even touched, part of ireland i am in we have pyrite in our concrete blocks houses are fallling down, and all council government officials, building control don t care, people still have to pay mortgage on house that are not safe to live in
jl- well these are very important times for the country I don’t think we can afford to much infighting as regards the Brexit situe, we need the solution. If times were different I’d agree about the hung parliament but opinions are to opposite and I really think it would end the same. The Liberals with their revote for brexit well and truly buggered their chance up as did Labour with there going for the youngsters votes.Sick to death of seeing politicians on all sides doing whats best for the party and not the voters. It would be a joke if the recent fire swayed things labours way IMO. Lets face it we are having an enquiry because of the deaths and are ready to string the Tories up yet Tony Blair is not in Jail for the Iraq war which pretty much began this sorry affair we find ourselves in along with opening our borders.
JG- should of sorted the banks out in 2008 like Iceland did.
looks like Amavi is being sold, also I bumped into my mate with the Villa connections and he reiterated what he’d been told, only his wording was four groups of dicks with Gabby being the biggest dick at Villa, no surprise. Turns out a local lad to me is a relative and played in the youth teams until last season when he was released, he said he’d played with Grealish who has always been skilful but has been throwing his arms around when tackled since he was 8 and doesn’t look like stopping no surprise either 🙂
Mark: “I don’t think we can afford to much infighting as regards the Brexit situe, we need the solution. “
I wish things were as simple as that. I’m afraid they’re not … mainly because no-one in Government seems to know what they’re doing. For example read what Hammond said this morning vs. what May has been saying.
Mark,
The Indy has done a straw poll to find out what the public’s attitude is now to Brexit. It would appear that the majority want a re-vote or to come out altogether.
Despite what the voters ‘said’, I doubt that many understood what they were getting themselves into – for example, the payback that the EU seem to want, whatever the final figure is. The public thought they were being told what was involved in Brexit but they were sold a pup. And you want to proceed on that basis?
To vote on a referenda you need to know what the real facts are – not what the comedians say they are.
Er … ” or to come out altogether”. I meant to say “or to withdraw from Brexit”.
JL- so we are being held to ransom no change there then, yes I would still come out, I cannot see the west continuing along its present path of printing money it has to pop. I could say sod it and just live my life out but things are broke right now in the EU we are not out yet and its steadily declining, the eastern countries are not taking there share of migrants either. How do you see things getting better if we stay in?
As for not knowing what they are doing how many brexits have we had? 1 how the hell would we know, pretty much the same as when we agreed to go in, we made it up.
and I hope that if we get a re-vote and they vote in, the rest of the country whines for a re-vote and riots, fairs fare 😉
Mark: “How do you see things getting better if we stay in?”
I don’t like how the EU is run either, but my view was and is that we’re in it too deeply. I think that’s what many people didn’t notice – that we’ve become entangled as if in spider’s web.
As in most things, if you want to change matters then you really need to do it from the inside.
The attitude of many of the Brexiteer voters was that the EU was something else, not connected with “us”.
That was a totally fallacious view. It’s clear that many thought that all we had to do was give 12 months notice and just walk out Then everything would be hunky-dory!
In short, Mark, to know whether to vote for Brexit or against meant actually doing a 3-month full-time course to find out the facts.
JL
I like that Aristotle quote.
It’s basically let go & start from here.
Kensington council is renowned for dubious financial behaviour, with action slanted for the benefit of those with money.
Someone likened their attitude to financial ethnic cleansing, ie: get rid of the poor.
Connected to the Westminster & Chelsea council games of the same ilk in the past.
lana
Dogma is something that takes one away from the common sense that Aristotle mentioned, & in most spiritual traditions dogma is a problem currently, to one drgree or another.
The slanted acquisition of society’s wealth without responsibility is a typical modern dogma using the old pattern from history in a warped way.
lana
Boris & the current tories were proponents of cleansing the poor from the areas where they could make money, especially in central London.
Rape & pillage they used to call it.
They are even sending their capped tenants to Birmingham now, & they take precedence over the natives as usual.
Yes it was hard at times but valuable as now I can be grounded wherever I am, & it teaches you the value of looking beyond yourself as there is much to enjoy, & it isn’t a dirty word as long as the lessons have been learned, & it doesn’t depend on money [we need some obviously].
I learned when travelling without a lot of money that one’s attitude is all important, especially out east, as if you’re negative you tend to attract negative circumstances there.
“and I hope that if we get a re-vote and they vote in, the rest of the country whines for a re-vote and riots, fairs fare ”
Might be worth a return to the UK just to participate.⚽️
Hi Iana
Have to pull you up on ‘Tommy Robinson would make a better mayor’.
Sorry, I don’t know you so I won’t get personal but Tommy Robinson in my opinion represents the worst in English Society, educated himself enough on the Koran so he could quote excerpts that prove all Muslims hate us infidels and extrapolates that written word to serve a racist purpose. While there are thousands of people born Muslim who have been radicalised through word or through Western impact in their own lives via mis-treatment during any US led invasion of country x. It can’t account for the millions of Muslims who live life peacefully. Given his justification of the Finsbury attack was down to Abdul Hamza having preached there years ago as opposed to taking an opportunity to just plainly condemn it. Nah not having him as a mayor of Sidcup, nevermind London, Villa acquaintances of mine of FB regularly post his videos so I’ve seen what he has to say and he cuts a very convincing figure if you want to be convinced that the Muslim person on your street is planning your death.
In the words of Burt Bacharach – What the world needs now is love sweet love
As for Brexit, wholeheartedly agree with JL, the throw your toys out of the pram approach to politics showed me your politicians were very immature and driven by global pie-sharing greed. Despite being on a par with Germany and France within the EU, instead of halting EU integration, indeed acting as the police for the smaller members, instead of changing EU policy, walking away from EU policy. Britain could have achieved much more as part of an EU powerhouse on its terms than this insular go it alone approach.
Brexit was partly mis-sold as an immigration issue, you may be able to control your borders better, limit immigration because you won’t have a quota to fill but you won’t be able to stop it, UK is still a top destination for those that are either economic migrants or destitute and looking for a better life. It ill beholds a nation that was once a colonial power that did so much damage around the world to suddenly close it’s doors unless you meet some educational requirements in an attempt to turn immigration into a CV checking exercise so that there is brain drain from poorer countries to the benefit of yours.
Despite ‘No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish’, had such an immigration policy existed during/post the Irish genocide of the 1840s, there would be millions more dead Irish, instead the Irish were allowed entry, were an immediate drain on social resources but rose up to become an integral part of British life, perhaps the colour of their skin helped (we weren’t as easy to spot other than carrying a bag of potatoes) but why not allow the current immigrants the same chance, without the fear-mongering approach to immigration of an imminent takeover and living under Sharia law.
Economically, how will Brexit benefit you, a buy British campaign to protect industry and jobs, would do the same level of support to those industries whether inside or outside of the EU so no change there, an ability to negotiate trade agreements as a block of 60m people vs. a block of 500m people yeh, those trade deals are really going to benefit you. This is an exercise to ensure any wealth generated falls back to the businesses that generate it through exports but the largest companies are owned globally thru shares and the return of investment is through dividends from generating greater profits. This doesn’t mean an increase in wages or disposable income because increasing wages is inflationary. Wages will remain stable, businesses will generate more profits if they are lucky and ordinary Joe’s and Josephine’s will go about as if nothing has changed in their lives beyond needing a visa to travel to Spain for a week’s holiday and a more volatile GBP maybe not getting you as many euros. Goods imported into the UK will become more expensive but is the British equivalent available and would it be of the same standard.
The future’s bright alright.
JL
Carrying on our earlier conversation, somewhat of a cop out to say this future re-alignment is something you’ve come to have learned but can’t say how you’ve learned it, smacks of intellectual snobbery, ‘I know something you don’t’ well I’m quite ok with not everything being handed to me on a plate but at the very least show some degree of generosity of spirit by pointing me in the right direction so I can start my own path.
Darren: “Carrying on our earlier conversation…”
Mmmmm… Yes, I thought that’s more-or-less how it would be read, but it’s certainly not “intellectual snobbery” as it’s not an intellectual matter for starters. I don’t play those games.
The issue is – and this is as far as I can go on this matter – is that you find out certain matters according to what paths life takes you along. If I relayed 5% of what I’ve come across I would stand to be regarded as something weird rather than it being accepted, and could even be mis-used by some. There’s no substitute for treading the path to find out what’s what.
And if you think I’m a “know-all”, I most certainly am not. What I’ve found humbles me and causes me to honour what I have come to discover. Someone said: “The more you know the less you know”.
Darren,
As to “pointing” in the right direction, it all stems from within. Your magnetic compass will take you there … if you desire enough to do so. And that’s key.
Darren: “What the world needs now is love sweet love”
Yep … as in this PDF to download…
http://www.lerwill-life.org.uk/spirit/pdf/Shams%20Tabriz%2040%20Rules.pdf
Darren: ” [Robinson] educated himself enough on the Koran so he could quote excerpts that prove all Muslims hate us infidels”
And of course people think that an English translation of al-Qur’an is the same thing as the original. It’s not and the original has depths of meanings not appreciated by English readers, nor many ordinary Muslims. In fact, it is said (e.g. by Shams-i-Tabriz – the link I gave earlier) that there are 4 levels of meaning in the Arabic meaning. Not just in the Qur’an but all Holy books.
I’ll have to look at the link tonight, it’s blocked in work
Wonderful article btw, as has the series, despite that thing called ‘the modern way’. There are tenets in football that go beyond the centuries and are very much applicable now as they were when the league was being formed.
Part of Robinson’s rhetoric is designed to sell him as ‘look what I did, I studied the Koran so you don’t have to and I’ve found terrible things that you can’t disprove or need to’.
As you say the Koran is multi-layered in language and how it is understood, the same could be said of the various translations of the Bible losing their meaning or context as they were being translated.
Darren,
On the Qur’an, the order of the chapters and the time they were written has to be taken into account. What Robinson and many like him do is read literally what’s written in English without questioning whether they understand it.
And, yes, the Bible also has many failings in translation and a lot of stuff left out, too. The people who compiled that book didn’t think that the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi scrolls would appear. And Origen’s work is now never looked at – unless someone really wants to.
Hi Darren
“Sorry, I don’t know you so I won’t get personal…” Is that some kind of passive aggressive threat?
I agree, the old EDL Tommy Robinson was the leader of, what was and is a racist organisation. I do believe, though, everyone deserves a second chance. Tommy is definitely anti-Islam. That doesn’t make him a racist. He’d still be a bit racist, but I think most of us are a bit racist, to be honest. He quit the EDL and seems to have reformed himself. He claims he has no beef with respectable law abiding Muslims and claims to defend their rights to peace and the pursuit of happiness etc. Tommy Robinson’s struggle, he argues, is just as much against the establishment as it is against the negative side of Islam. According to him, the establishment has let down those peace loving Muslims as much as it’s let down Britain in general.
I see in Tommy, a man from humble beginnings, who’s tried to better himself and has the courage of his convictions to take the public stage and say what he feels. I don’t hear hate speech, anymore. I admit, I may be proven wrong in the future. We’ll see.
I have heard Tommy, condemn the Finsbury attack as “disgusting” and “unacceptable.” I don’t know about the Abdul Hamza thing. What I’ve seen is Tommy Robinson condemning the attack. He claims to have received hundreds of death threats accusing him of inciting anti-Muslim hate. I hope we see positives from him over the next few days, but I have not seen him making excuses for it. It depends on what one is watching. Mainstream reporting can’t be trusted.
My statement that Tommy would make a better mayor than Sadiq Khan was made just after recent atrocities and after Sadiq made some pretty controversial statements himself about London. No, Tommy wouldn’t be a good mayor of London. He doesn’t have the managerial qualifications or experience. I said what I said in a bit of anger, in the heat of the context. I think others on here detected that. Some agreed to disagree, but responded in a positive way through describing some of their experiences over the years. I appreciate that, hence no arguments from me.
As for Tommy representing the “worst in English Society”, I’m not so sure. He’s not scared to stand up, whether it be in front of the Oxbridge Unions or up to the police. That takes courage and nerve. He is making friends of former enemies and building quite a following. Hopefully for the good. I’ve seen, to be honest, much much worse people of all kinds in the world.
Yes, the world needs love. Where is it going to come from?
Good to read your arguments on Brexit. The argument it is better to be on the inside so as to influence change is a specious classic. It could just mean assimilation into the machine and subservience to a higher power whom Brits have no control in electing.
It is obvious and you’re quite right that the UK has been ineffectively represented in the EU. It could have done so much more to stop the rot. As JL said, the UK is (perhaps) so deep in it, it’s too late. We’ll see about that too. Hopefully it’s not too late.
Irish, as you say, have risen up through many a hard time to be an integral (and extremely important) part of British society. Today’s migrant problems are far more complicated. I enjoy different cultures, but I think migration needs to slow down so Britain can take in a deep breath and try to get it right for everyones’ sake.
Iana: “The argument it is better to be on the inside so as to influence change is a specious classic. It could just mean assimilation into the machine and subservience to a higher power whom Brits have no control in electing.”
It could mean that if you let it! But running away into the unknown is probably less clever. That way the poorest and most vulnerable would get the worst of the fall-out if it all fell apart – which it might well do.
One of the arguments for Brexit is the one about opportunities to trade more with the USA and countries the other side of the world for our goods! Now for one I do not see any advantage in siding more with the USA – particularly as they are suffering from DTs at the moment! 😉 And the other issue is that moving goods around the world costs more (money-wise and environmentally) and takes longer than local trading – obviously.
Hopefully it’s not too late [to withdraw because of the degree by which we are linked].
Well, we already know that there are hundreds of laws if not thousands that have to be altered if we exit. Achieving that can’t be done in a few weeks nor a few months. Someone said it would take years. All it does is make work for lawyers – and they may well still get it wrong!
Iana: “Yes, the world needs love. Where is it going to come from?”
Not from ‘them’, but from us! *We* have to change. *We* have to see the light.
Iana,
Already we’ve failed at Step One to get trade talks going. The EU said “not until October” and so we gave in it would seem. By then we’re already 7 months into the 2 years available to get agreement.
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/blow-to-david-davis-as-brexit-trade-talks-will-not-begin-until-october-1-8015683
“And of course people think that an English translation of al-Qur’an is the same thing as the original. It’s not and the original has depths of meanings not appreciated by English readers, nor many ordinary Muslims. In fact, it is said (e.g. by Shams-i-Tabriz – the link I gave earlier) that there are 4 levels of meaning in the Arabic meaning. Not just in the Qur’an but all Holy books.”
What is so special about the Koran and any other book labled holy anyway? If people sincerely want to find the original meaning, they will through research and discernment. All languages are significant and I don’t see why the likes of Arabic or any other language is closer to God or superior in any way to other languages. That actually strikes me as racist..
Infact, if people stopped believing the likes of the Koran or whatever are perfect and devine, the world would be a happier place imho.
JL
Guess, it’s up to the powers that be. Will it be resentful acceptance or all out riots? There’ll be anothr referendum, won’t there?
interesting debate lads- I worked for an Asian chap today and we got talking, he said we have to stop bending over backwards to please everyone as in making so many allowances for religion/laws etc and just say this is how we live. He said in the 80/90’s he was at raves on ecstasy and everyone loved everyone else 🙂
As for changing it from within? have we not tried that since we have been in? continually out voted by Germany and France and their allies. Cameron gave us Brexit after failing yet again, I have no faith that we can change the agenda.
DOR- I have been to Ireland lovely place plenty of wide open spaces and not many people, we however have a population the size of France and Germanys with two thirds less space unless we go for some decking around the edges we will just have to keep building on the green belt eh. Hows your own plans to leave going? 😉
“Dublin-based Hibernia Forum said the Republic could leave the bloc as revenge for its treatment by Brussels during the financial crisis.
Co-founder Keith Redmond said the country had been “quarantined” and forced to take on “toxic banking debt”.
Mr Redmond, who is also a councillor on the Fingal County Council, told Express.co.uk other factors, such as a growing loss of sovereignty, could lead to an Irish EU exit. ”
Lovely bunch the EU telling northern Ireland to unify and they can rejoin, Scotland can feck off though 🙂
Iana- well said mate, if we need a book to tell how to find god he’s having a laugh with us 😉
listened to a podcast about natural highs the other day and apparently if you burn acacia leaves its a bit like LSD, lots of those where Moses went, think burning bush 😉
Iana: “Infact, if people stopped believing the likes of the Koran or whatever are perfect and devine, the world would be a happier place imho.”
The Holy Books are only a guidance anyhow. But it’s because they get mis-read and (as Darren said) adulterated that we have problems.
So, in a way, you’d be right – the world might be a happier place without them. Temporarily. But some people get awakened to seek for something more to live for than money, TV, drugs and sex.
And such people find there’s a reason for living that is worth finding. If not, then why did Krishna, Jesus, the Buddha, Zoroaster and all the other Masters inhabit the Earth? When you’ve studied their lives then maybe you’ll agree that there is something there to be looked into.
Of course, there’s freedom of choice, so if that doesn’t interest you then bless you and may you live in peace.
Iana: “All languages are significant and I don’t see why the likes of Arabic or any other language is closer to God or superior in any way to other languages.”
That’s not actually true. Most languages excluding the very Far East are only developments of these core languages: Sanskrit, Hebrew and Arabic. These languages lend themselves to an extremely high degree of poetry and are much more pure.
Other languages are merely derivatives and for transactional purposes.
Mark
Like attracts like they say.
Books are important but only in context as a support to experiential wisdom which comes & goes in our consciousness, & we can recognise & use them to inspire in the moment [if we bother to].
We have to put the work in.
If it’s your tradition it is a good attitude to revere the written part of the tradition as an emanation of the wisdom itself, as long as you remember that it isn’t the ultimate wisdom [or God] itself but your perception.
In Vajrayana Buddhism it is said by great practitioners that you can’t get enlightened on the path,
In other words you have to experientially go beyond your conceptual grasping at understanding, not just think about it as a construct.
Books are not very useful at that.
lana
People like Tommy Robinson don’t go beyond finding out enough to use it to manipulate & further their self grandisement at the expense of everyone & everything else, & glorify in their negativity to justify their ignorance & cruelty.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/apos-far-fascists-islamist-terrorists-131211186.html
Most people are not just ignorant [at times] but because of their inbuilt connection to the wisdom, they are vulnerable to this kind of nasty negatively pervasive manipulation.
Wasn’t it in the christian tradition where it says that the devil always appears more persuasive?
lana
Most people I’ve ever met would not agree with Tommy Robinson in their saner moments.
Neither would people whine & moan as they didn’t get their way.
I think it was Steely Dan that sang “I read the daily news & believe every word.
It’s amazing how the media gets otherwise rational people on one.
Mark
I find it amazing with people I know, otherwise intelligent people, who read the sun etc, then regurgitate what they read to everyone else, then forget it & don’t wonder what it does to them.
If we ate like that we’d be very ill.
IanG- I love books but we must always remember they were written by mankind and being read by mankind. I don’t know about Arabic but the written word can be interpreted so many ways by so many minds let alone the writers subtle meaning, no wonder we are all confused as hell, Newspapers? good for composting 🙂
‘It all comes from the soil’
Was that Kenneth Williams?
“…Newspapers? good for composting ” And lighting the fire on a cold day. That glossy paper they use for adverts doesn’t burn as well.
Iang-“find it amazing with people I know, otherwise intelligent people, who read the sun etc, then regurgitate what they read to everyone else, then forget it & don’t wonder what it does to them.
Yes, seems most of that kind of media is like coca cola for the brain. They’ll say just about anything if it sells.
On the other hand, more people than ever can read and are educated. Most can read for themselves, so those that choose to do so, see and escape the futility of religious dogma and see the likes of fake news for what it is. Yet, many still, are happy to let themselves be brainwashed and fooled by mass media and wolves in sheep’s clothing. There’s something destructive built into us as a species.
“…Sanskrit, Hebrew and Arabic. These languages lend themselves to an extremely high degree of poetry and are much more pure. Other languages are merely derivatives and for transactional purposes.”
Tell that to the aboriginies of Australia, or the Zulu of South Africa. It doesn’t add up.
I know that most languages, especially within the fertile cresent are Indo-European in origin, but what you’re claiming is unlikely to be fact. The Aboriginies of Australia, for example, have been speaking their languages since long before Arabic, Sanskrit or Hebrew existed.
And just because languages change doesn’t mean they are less “pure.” To me, it just means they have adapted and become more meaningful to its speakers. Language is only significant when it is understood. Look what happened with the Reformation when the Bible was printed in native languages and people no longer had to rely on someone’s translations in Latin.
Something about the origins and age of the Aboriginal languages of Australia
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2006/12/13/1809514.htm
Iana,
If you would go to my website there is a section on the origins of the human race – essentially stemming from the Pacific, but I’m not going to say entirely from there. So the Aborigines are included in that. Civilised Man goes back a long long way – as you probably know – and not just the 10,000 years that academics are willing to accept.
As to the matter of purity in languages, well if you don’t accept the notion of a Creator God there’s nothing much more I can say. My understanding tells me that certain languages were used by the Almighty to reveal instruction because of their purity. If you don’t want to accept that then OK, but I most importantly say it’s the lives of the Masters that should be examined and learnt from in any case … and (most important) to walk your own walk and learn from experience, hopefully using one of those Masters as a guide.
Iana: “Language is only significant when it is understood.”
True, but perhaps as mankind has “fallen” then perhaps he’s now less intelligent than he used to be and depends on crude tools to make himself understood?
Mark: ” I don’t know about Arabic but the written word can be interpreted so many ways by so many minds let alone the writers subtle meaning, no wonder we are all confused as hell”
You’re talking about the ordinary unfocussed human mind here. Train the monkey mind and it will see things more pointedly.
Hi Iana
Apologies if you thought I was being passive aggressive or threatening in anyway, reading it back it was probably an unwise choice of words, probably better said that I just completely disagree with your assertion that Tommy Robinson would make a good mayor and don’t take it personal that we don’t agree, as I’ve seen many people admittedly of internet warrior class (best used to describe most people you disagree with, I suppose) to vehemently attack anyone who derides Tommy Robinson so was probably protecting myself from any potential personal attack on me for having my views as opposed to you.
Hi Mark
Oh God, Ireland is a curious kettle of fish, on one hand, the country’s infrastructure wouldn’t exist without EU funding but equally we’ve not had a class of politician capable of truly running the country ever, the people that were truly capable of running a republic government were the signatories to the Irish Proclamation and understood true Republicanism, there’s been sparks of good ideas but the scale of the country doesn’t lend itself to grandiose ideas like the NHS so we’ve very much a two-tier health service for example.
In terms of 2008 onwards, our politicians bent over backwards to save the cartel of the government, the banks and the property developers. Anglo Irish Bank should have been let go to the wall, I used to work for them, they weren’t big enough to save and all the deposits and transactional business could have been transferred to AIB or Bank of Ireland anyway. At the point the Troika came in, the narrative of us being good little Europeans was being written to bash Southern Europe. Within the EU, we’ll never have any power so we don’t have any issues with that but as above given our economy is so small we are too reliant on EU funding to stand up and say further integration should stop, there is however huge pressure on our low corp tax rate (which may spark our politicians as it’s a money thing as opposed to a social thing) which we use as a selling point for foreign direct investment along with our EU membership in terms of passporting into the rest of the EU. We do have a highly educated workforce, relatively low unemployment, an ability to pay back our debt so we continue on this path way without ever really challenging our politicians to be better than they are.
There are a few lone voices like Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan who are challenging the status quo.
In terms of holy books, I’m still of the opinion that they were written by men with an agenda to sell their god as being the only one, in that sale, hyperbole and the blurring of fact and fiction are par for the course so I read the new testament with a pinch of salt, I don’t believe in any theocracy as a way to god, I’m still debating with myself why we as humans expect there to be a heaven, expect an afterlife or expect that we have a soul, the expectation that these are ethereal things is fine but why are we so special that we don’t expect it of every living thing. There is that difficulty that I’m looking for a physical response to my questions but equally I’m thinking these heaven and soul constructs are there to protect the human mind from finding out there is nothing after death.
I lost my father-in-law to cancer a few years ago and I look at my mother-in-law and her absolute belief that she will be with her husband again but I look at that as being a thought process to deal with death having a bond in life for it to be broken forever would be the death of her in effect.
Mark: “I worked for an Asian chap today and we got talking, he said we have to stop bending over backwards to please everyone as in making so many allowances for religion/laws etc and just say this is how we live. He said in the 80/90’s he was at raves on ecstasy and everyone loved everyone else”
The first part of that has some merit, so long as tolerance is maintained … The second part reveals that people don’t realise how much they’ve been hoodwinked. Those “raves and ecstasy” and so-called love are just other manifestations of power exerted on people to dangle at the behest of those in control, while thinking they are onto a good thing. Or, I should say, those who think they are in control. They can only be in control if we let them, and we let them by not focusing the mind.
Darren: “I’m still of the opinion that they were written by men with an agenda to sell their god as being the only one, in that sale, hyperbole and the blurring of fact and fiction are par for the course so I read the new testament with a pinch of salt,…”
And that’s wise thinking, in my view. Since the books of the New Testament were chosen (at the Council of Nicea, 325AD) from a range of books then available, the New Testament is clearly a construct for people to think in a certain way. The finds of the Dead Sea Scrolls and at Nag Hammadi provide expansion on what was known before 325, plus the works of Origen.
Yes, while not excluding them from a certain level of validity, the history of the Holy Books gives cause for caution, and more the reason to go by the lives of the Masters themselves, and those who still carry the Light.
Darren: “why are we so special that we don’t expect it of every living thing. “
“Special” because we have capabilities that most other creatures don’t have, or that some creatures (like the whale family) that seem to have greater capabilities in certain ways, but are physically restricted.
It’s clear from what even the Bible says that Man was expected to give care to the rest of creation, for they have their own destiny. Hence why the Jains fear hurting every little creature and go to extraordinary lengths to avoid doing so.
We have fallen from the true understanding of scripture so that we now treat other life with impunity. Bur are gradually learning that it is futile – harmful to the ecological balance, even – to do so.
“As to the matter of purity in languages, well if you don’t accept the notion of a Creator God there’s nothing much more I can say. My understanding tells me that certain languages were used by the Almighty to reveal instruction because of their purity. If you don’t want to accept that then OK.”
Fair enough, John. I’m no atheist. I believe in the Trinity. Many don’t and they have their reasons. I know that books do change a bit (sometimes a lot) when theyre translated. I understand where you’re coming from there. I remember reading the Last Temptation of Christ (Nikos Kazansakis), a brilliant piece of literature imo, wishing I could read it in the original Greek.
I personally think that if a god was to use a “pure” language, it wouldn’t be a terrestrial man-made language. Maybe it would be a language that can express things we can’t.
I doubt the infallibility of any man-made literature including the Bible. I doubt there was a real Noahs ark in reality. How did they cope with the kangaroos etc? And where did the Aboriginies originate? Too many unanswered questions. To me, books like the Bible and Koran are written by mortal men in terrestrial languages, so aren’t infallible in any way. That’s not to say there isn’t truth there. I do like Jesus because he apparently stood up to a corrupt religious establishment and he didn’t like hypocrisy and dogma etc. He would go against the so-called holy scriptures of Mosaic law in the name of common sense. Then again if He is God I guess He can do what He wants.
Iana: “it wouldn’t be a terrestrial man-made language. Maybe it would be a language that can express things we can’t.”
What you’ve described is the very nature of Sanskrit and Arabic! 🙂 … Particularly Sanskrit. Languages constructed in times and by people who were of a different calibre.
“I do like Jesus because he apparently stood up to a corrupt religious establishment and he didn’t like hypocrisy and dogma etc. “
Yes, agreed. But the same description applies to all the Masters in different degrees. Including Muhammed.
Iana: “I doubt there was a real Noahs ark in reality. How did they cope with the kangaroos etc? “
That’s an interesting one! There is a notion that what was conveyed was the genes of the creatures, not the creatures themselves.
As to the Flood … a great flood is recorded in so many traditions, not just in the Bible.
lana/DOR etc
Buddhists don’t believe in a ‘God’ as it is a concept, but they do believe in the ‘Truth’ which is similar to what the concept of ‘God’ is describing, & beyond conceptual understanding, & is experiential.
All the books or religious texts need a living transmissional key to understand the depth of what is mostly experientially understood, & without it the words are self limiting in scope, & it is mostly missing.
The new age belief that anyone can work it out themselves is for 99% of people a fallacy, & what can be worked out is more based on individual concept based understanding which tends to mirror our expectations & tends towards the simplistic in terms of what we would like to happen, which is also a part of the mix of individual personal belief systems we tend to create out of hope or blind faith [which is often better than no faith, but not always when we see the damage sometimes it can cause, & respect is needed.
Much of The old & new Testament & the books of Islam & hinduism & Sikhism are more about training ourselves to live in a spiritually & mental healthy way, which although it is limited, it is far beyond where most of us dwell in any present we mostly take part in.
It is just as well that aspiration is included as part of the process & marries into aiming to be a good human being.
In Buddhism [& to a degree Sufism & the Christian contemplative tradition], Aspiration with training is an important part of where our mind is [monkey mind as JL called it] at any time & where we end up in this life.
It is also said that it is really a kind of very uncommon common sense as to experience it one has to be here, in the present, & have or aspire to have that part of us awake.
I think that is more what Aristotle is saying when he says that common sense is the beginning of consciousness or being awake.
Words/language are usually focused on the mundane, but definitely Sanskrit was allied to being ‘awake’ in it’s evolvement & is not really a spoken language very much any more, but the realm of scholars.
In modern times [8th century onwards]The Tibetan language was deliberately created with the idea of it having an element of the sacred, as it was created by evolved practitioners who had been trained by masters who held a living experiential transmission from the time of the Buddha, & is very much still alive.
There was unfortunately never many of such people in any tradition.
But at the end of the day we have to just do what we can as aspiration without the focused action is a pleasant non lasting dream.
Personally all that I have learned or experienced has been a series of signposts, which along with hard work has led to trusting our innate goodness, which we lose as soon as we try to control or categorise it.
A hard won common sense.
Hopefully DOR, your mother joins with love & that part of her husband when she passes.
I wish her well.
Why is reference made to the Ark in the bible in terms of its size, if it was carrying just 8 people and the genes of animals, why not look to impress theologians and scientists alike with verbal/written evidence that DNA was known of many thousands of years ago as opposed to making the story consumable for the knowledge at the time.
There have been many global catastrophic events in history that could account for a flooding narrative, those verbal traditions passed down through generations were probably manipulated to take on a god meaning to ensure conformity with a set of rules or merely explain a natural disaster to a more primitive mind. According to Genesis the whole world was evil except Noah who was good, God saved Noah and killed everyone else, i.e. follow Noah’s aka God’s lead and you won’t suffer. A powerful story of good vs. evil, the power of God over the Earth and in keeping with the times that omnipotence didn’t breed a loving/forgiving God but one of little patience with his bold children.
Food for thought IanG and thanks with regard to my mother in law
Darren: “Why is reference made to the Ark in the bible in terms of its size, if it was carrying just 8 people and the genes of animals”
I think I’ve seen the number of creatures as being around 640,000. That would mean a lot of space required to accommodate all the gene containers! 😉
I don’t know … I’m not sure it’s that important apart from the reason for the Flood … but certainly a Noah-like figure and an Ark is repeated in other traditions.
IanG: “Buddhists don’t believe in a ‘God’ as it is a concept, but they do believe in the ‘Truth’ which is similar to what the concept of ‘God’ is describing, & beyond conceptual understanding, & is experiential.”
The idea of non-belief in a God does do the rounds when Buddhism is talked of, but only because of the emphasis in Buddhism on ‘The Way’ so as not to give opportunity for devotionists to fix their gaze on some external phenomenon, which is what fundamentalist Muslims and Christians often fall into the trap of.
The Buddha (who said that he was the successor to a long line of Buddhas – he was not the first) was a contemporary to Mahavira (the ‘founder’ of the Jains) with whom various similarities have been found. But that’s not surprising as both Ways stemmed from the Sanathana Dharma (the ‘Eternal Path’, or the ‘Perennial Path’ as Aldous Huxley called it) concept in India.
It is significant that Jesus is said to have spent years studying with Jains, Buddhists and Brahmins between the ages of 12 and 29 before leaving for Persia. Reincarnation was not excluded from formal Christian doctrine until 553 AD.
Shri Sathya Sai Baba regarded Mahavira and the Buddha as par excellence interpreters of Sanathana Dharma, and spoke of them and Jesus almost in equal measure, as well as other spiritual personages such as Rumi and Guru Nanak (founder of the Sikhs).
Darren: “There have been many global catastrophic events in history that could account for a flooding narrative, those verbal traditions passed down through generations were probably manipulated to take on a god meaning to ensure conformity with a set of rules or merely explain a natural disaster to a more primitive mind.”
That’s what the academics tend to say, Darren, but which is a typical attempt by academia to keep us away from the knowledge that civilisations existed for hundreds of thousands of years before the classical Egyptian period. Inhabitants of Atlantis and Mu were anything but primitive until they lost their concept of Unity. Which brings us back to Brexit and the EU! 😀
Darren: “In terms of holy books, I’m still of the opinion that they were written by men with an agenda to sell their god as being the only one…”
Just to but in with a furthe thought on this…
It is expressly stated in the Qur’an that Christians, Jews and others are ‘ahl-i-khitab’, meaning ‘People of the [Same] Book” and which is why Muslims in their earliest period accommodated the followers of those religions in their Islamic society. And why the even-tempered Muslims (the great majority) continue to respect the same way of thinking.
Further, Imam Ali (Prophet Muhammed’s cousin and son-in-law and regarded as the true successor of the Prophet by the Shia faction of Islam) said that the people of India were people of the ancient wisdom.
The early centuries of Islam were predominantly pure years, but gradually extremism crept into the fabric to proclaim that their Book was better than others, even to the extent of spreading of Islam by force, a course of action which was never intended in Islam.
Hi folks, recently heard a convincing talk (they have the evidence) that around 12,000 years ago a chunk of comet hit north America’s ice packs (ice age) this caused massive death world wide then 500 hundred years after another hit the ice and a world wide flood occurred raising the ocean by 400 foot. There are buildings everywhere under the ocean even off the coast of Florida. There are in existence maps showing the Antarctic without ice, and Pyramid structures on every continent. I think the remnants of civilization got together with the hunter gatherers that roamed the earth and taught them. Think about it, we are at the height of civilization yet hunter gatherers are still to be found. Hence the beginnings of agriculture and civilisation we seem to think happened around then plus the lowering of IQ through interbreeding (difficult subject but it has scientific backing).
I would hazard a guess that an advanced civilisation originally found evidence of spirit through ingesting mushrooms and various plants or at least another reality and sought to make sense of it all as their intelligence grew. We are probably at the back end of that long trek about now unless we destroy everything, we might even be technically ahead of the curve for our mental/spiritual development. The other hypothesis is they were not of this earth.
God spoke and created the universe, so he Created with sound or vibration which is pretty much the fabric of our universe. God is Vibration?
Mark: “God is Vibration?”
God is said to be evrything. Including vibration. Why limit what God is?
Comets
This page is interesting.
http://www.morien-institute.org/darkages.html
Mark: “I think the remnants of civilization got together with the hunter gatherers that roamed the earth and taught them.”
Churchward believed that the hunter-gatherers were simply ordinary survivors of cataclysms. The wisdom people – the high priests – created (it is said) new centres of learning in Egypt and Tibet, and elsewhere.
JL- Personally I think any civilised person without knowledge of surviving from the land would not last long, how many today for instance would? the knowledge to do that is not something you would like to start to learn in a cataclysm imo. Likelihood is that survivors of civilisation were helped and in turn helped the hunter gatherers, seems more logical to me John but who knows.
why not limit god? 😉
“God is the original vibration behind the breath of life. I would later learn that Edgar Cayce had experienced this same mystical realization: “Vibration is that same energy, same power, ye call God.”
We have now discovered that our brains work in 11 dimensions fancy that
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-discovers-your-brain-actually-works-in-up-to-11-dimensions
this looks interesting on the “into” Africa theory
https://grahamhancock.com/fentonb1/
Mark: “I would later learn that Edgar Cayce had experienced this same mystical realization: “Vibration is that same energy, same power, ye call God.”
You can say that God is “vibration”, but equally you can say God is “life” and “love” though you could say that ‘life’ and ‘love’ are expressions of ‘vibration’.
Hence the Hindu sound at the commencement of all spiritual activity.
The problem with exploring ideas rather than experiencing what is, is that when exploring ideas becomes a habit it becomes a misdirection which takes one further away from the whatever you want to call God.
This is not study except in a mundane sense.
The whole point of ideas in a spiritual sense, isn’t necessarily to keep going from one to the next [unless the progression is focused], but to set off a spiritual illumination, the focus of which is within not in our personal or shared projections.
To mix that with the mundane ideas hopping about & call it spiritual is dangerous to our spiritual life, & feeds the monkey mind & becomes spiritual materialism which strengthens our sense of invulnerability like teenagers.
That is not the same as just enjoying ideas innocently & with humour, which can be great fun, but when the ego takes over also can be dubious destructive parlour games like in Victorian times with seances etc.
Ideas are our creation, whereas the ultimate [God] is beyond the personal but is the basis for everything on the relative level of existence.
To mix the two without understanding this non intellectually is dangerous to our spiritual life, & the proof of the pudding when we die, where we see our actions that we usually forget or keep hidden from ourselves, which includes thoughts & actual motivations.
Being innocent & simplistic is less harmful, but otherwise we need to take care.
Fixture list tomorrow I think.
IanG- so its possibly damned if you do and not damned if you don’t? surely looking but never finding is no harm best tell all these people writing stuff to stop putting are souls in danger we would be better off not knowing it seems 😉
mark k
think gabby was rightly stumped when he read your post abut 11 dimensions of brain, he looked down thought fuck me i ll have to take my shoes off ,only 10 fingers and thumbs
IanG: “This is not study except in a mundane sense.”
I agree in the most part with your statement, but on this I somewhat disagree.
It depends on intention. It is not mundane if the participant(s) are genuinely seeking. And to some it can help in getting to the door to the experiential path. If ideas have been wrongly fed through the educational system or upbringing (or both) then there has to be some intellectual clarification before the way is clear.
I should have said “then usually there has to be some intellectual clarification” instead of “then there has to be some intellectual clarification”.
The Way, of course, is a lot to do with the removal of ego, btw.
JG- its ok he has 8 on each foot and webbing 🙂
JL- Strange that God apparently chose to make us in his image if losing the ego is the aim? and how does this stand up to the ever growing lists of Hominids and ancestors being found? if indeed we are in his image of course.
I have said before that the intellect pays a big part in even wanting to look for the answers, people start looking through curiosity or a sense of lack and some believe through fear but it is just belief not knowing.
listened to a podcast about breath yesterday its something we take for granted but rarely do right. We are meant to breath through the nose into the diaphragm because when we do we produce nitrous oxide in the sinuses and that opens up the blood vessels in the lower lungs along with warming the air. Mouth breathing dries the lungs out and upsets the oxygen to carbon dioxide balance which is crucial or we become acidic or too alkaline. weirdly people over-breath getting to much oxygen generally and mostly into the chest which sparks fight or flight. And to little CO2 gives us cold extremities.
The book is called the Oxygen advantage by Patrick Mckeown. Just shows you that all the stuff done by monks etc is very valid stuff that we are just beginning to scientifically validate. Well worth a read if you suffer from asthma or anxiety or want to lose weight.
DOR- You would of loved the podcast, he is Irish chap and very southern Ireland in his speech. He was talking to the American presenter in a broad Irish accent, Breath was “bret” Breathing was Breeding, Breathe was Breed amongst other gems, I wish I could of seen the interviewers face 🙂
IanG: “the ultimate [God] is beyond the personal but is the basis for everything on the relative level of existence.”
Woops, I missed this sentence to start with!
On that I cannot agree. I see ‘God’ as being totally imminent as well as transcendant and I believe the main esoteric teachings are in accord with that.
Mark,
Strange that God apparently chose to make us in his image if losing the ego is the aim? and how does this stand up to the ever growing lists of Hominids and ancestors being found? if indeed we are in his image of course.
In the first part here, understanding must firstly be that we are not the body. The body dies and disintegrates, whereas our essence lives on. Thereby when talking of us being in the image of God, we are really talking about the essence of our being, not the physical. The findings of ancient physical forms is actually irrelevant for the purposes of the study of reality – the reason for it all.
I have said before that the intellect pays a big part in even wanting to look for the answers, people start looking through curiosity or a sense of lack and some believe through fear but it is just belief not knowing.
The intellect is merely a computer and not too helpful in understanding (except only for intellectual study) unless you connect it to your essence – via your conscience.
Reliance on intellect tends to inflate the ego – the very thing that needs to be deflated for proper understanding. Hence why it is often the case that highly qualified academic people cannot connect with themselves. And, sadly, I have known a lot of such people (two in my own greater family) who have had to seek psychiatric help as a result.
Thanks JL I thought that would be your answer. Strange or not so strange that God placed this energy form in a body so capable of destruction? If he for instance had placed it in a Whale (which he may have?) then no chance of an atom bomb etc. Comes down to temptation I suppose or we don’t learn without mistakes.
The other way this could work is God is in everything and DNA is the medium through which gods work is done? almost like a huge experiment to see who gets there first. The Shamans of south America claim to have gained their knowledge of plants through communing with them and sharing their DNA. This happens throughout the plant world and the microbial world and in our guts too, Knowledge and change through new/sharing DNA (blueprint) and quite likely throughout the cosmos on this plain of existence.
On the intellect being a computer, you don’t agree that emotions follow thoughts I assume? either consciously or sub-consciously. Sorry about your relatives but you don’t have to be clever to be nuts but yes some are like automatons, the scientific world is full of Dogma too, plenty invested in the Ego, best to be open minded I find.
we have hull on the tele first game BTW
http://www.squawka.com/news/the-201718-championship-fixture-list-in-full-aston-villa-host-hull-on-opening-day-leeds-travel-to-promoted-bolton/961827#CG1QVpYkGHsxAbQV.97
Mark,
“If he for instance had placed it in a Whale (which he may have?) then no chance of an atom bomb etc. Comes down to temptation I suppose or we don’t learn without mistakes.”
My understanding is that humans were created with the capabilities they have to fully utilise their innate potential, and bestowed on man was freedom of choice to go with it. Problem is man got carried away – often with serious results; even Newton’s law of cause and effect didn’t register as a reality in people’s lives. The spirits of animals of all kinds have their own destiny.
“On the intellect being a computer, you don’t agree that emotions follow thoughts I assume?”
Oh they most certainly can – and do. But emotions are one of the packages we have to be careful about. Once some semblance of mind self-control has been obtained – to see objectively and to put things into context, even attachments – then peace of mind becomes more achievable.
“best to be open minded I find.”
Even better to be in balance. Including right and left hand brains.
JL- That is where I find the evidence conflicts with the bible etc, If we were created for that purpose why the sharing of DNA with so many Hominids? not to mention our reliance our gut microbes etc Also suggests that the rest of life popped up as is? the evidence of life on Earth does not show that imo.
As for the rest I completely agree, disengaging with the chatter is the way to go. Balance is hopefully where I am heading 🙂
Mark
‘Damned if you do & damned if you don’t’
Pretty much sums up the view when thinking about stuff.
It’s irrelevent when it comes to doing stuff in the here & now though
Mark
It’s not about not knowing so much as providing opportunities for people to lead themselves & be led astray by people with a variety of motivations.
New age stuff often morphs into fashions which can also pull people into providing their own cul de sacs.
Taking care, being aware & not being gullible is common sense.
It’s not so much what you do, as how you do it.
We have Millwall Away as the last game of the season.
JL
That’s the danger of labels, they’re not the same meaning twice to people, & tend towards projections.
Words eh!
The point was that ‘what you ma call it’, manifests everywhere & in everything, & there is the potential for us to come out of our labels & projections & see things as they actually are in the moment.
Some people would say that God is everywhere etc, & that the divine is the most important & integral part of everything, but that’s not my language, but suffice it to say that the ‘whatever you want to call it’ is omnipotent & beyond words & concepts.
Mark
‘Made in God’s image’ etc.
It depends what you see when you look in the mirror.
Iang- I see a big shining ball of energy, might just be my flash on the iphone 😉
Living in the now could be construed as being present without judgement and former baggage which you would think could leave you wide open if the former baggage was good advice for not being led astray or done over, but then does it matter if your done over or led astray? it might at Millwall
maybe we will have won the league by then and not have to go 🙂
Mark
“JL- Strange that God apparently chose to make us in his image”
An interesting verse is Genesis 1:26. Let’s make mankind ito be like us., to be in our image. The interesting thing is that both the pronoun and the possesive are plural. I have a Māori Bible on my computer so it’s easier for me to translate rather than run away to get an English version, which says pretty much the same thing. The interesting thing is, Who is US in the verse?
Iang: ” suffice it to say that the ‘whatever you want to call it’ is omnipotent & beyond words & concepts.”
Eaxctly. As you probably know the word ‘Allah’ actually means that, in effect.
Mark: “That is where I find the evidence conflicts with the bible etc, If we were created for that purpose why the sharing of DNA with so many Hominids? not to mention our reliance our gut microbes etc Also suggests that the rest of life popped up as is? the evidence of life on Earth does not show that imo.”
What the Bible states is mainly for the simple mind to take in the first level of knowledge, and also misses out chunks. This is the danger of relying on books, no matter what it is supposed to represent. The Bible has been selectively put together purely by people, let’s not forget.
well it feels like back to the football time with the fixtures out, already planning a family trip for one of the April games, bringing my daughters to their first game.
In addition I’ll be making a further trip with a relative of my wife’s who missed out on the good ship Villa and plumped for Leeds back in the 70s.
But and i’ll hound you all on this, I’d like us to come together for a Villa game and a meeting of Aston Villa Lifers, it is often been threatened but for the hardcore on this site, it would be a wonderful thing to meet up, move beyond our screens and keyboards and raise a glass for the likes of Gary Haddon while dissecting Villa, Politics, Life.
Enough notice will be given to everyone to make arrangements, to clear calendars and remove any excuse for non-attendance beyond not being in Birmingham on the given day, what do you say Lifers?
DOR- I’m up for it mate
JL- I’m curious who wrote the book your reading from then if not people? whats to stop the information you read from biasing your experience of life for instance?
Mark,
My sources are multiple! and certainly not just from books 🙂 … And I’m only speaking now after 40 years of experiential life in the subject, tripping up (as I have) over the years.
Ignore me if you wish. That’s your prerogative: my views are not to be accepted carte blanche.
DOR
I also up for it, but not until after the middle of September.
Hope we can do it
JL
That is what Truth means in Tibetan.
The science of mind [which is not a thing] has been rigorously experientially explored for well over a thousand years.
As the Buddha said, paraphrased, “Don’t just believe in my words [blind faith], first experientially check it out for yourself & then make your own decision”
JL- Ignore you? sorry if it seems that way I am asking you and questioning you my friend, ignoring would be the opposite no?
I try to stay open to all possibilities but I can only see it from where I am at this point in time. The question is still the same, how do we know what we experience/read to be true and not just our minds serving up what we want to experience? seek and ye shall find.
I’m curious because you hold such strong beliefs that what you know is true yet I sense you are holding something back? I cannot tell you exactly what I believe I have never bothered to tie it down yet other than all may not be what it seems.
IanG,
Yes, I believe you! 🙂
Mark,
My remark was just an objective statement, Mark – simply indicating (as IanG has suggested) that it all has to be found for one-self. And there are so many ways of doing it, some more suited for a specific individual than others. What is one person’s sweet can be another’s poison!
If your approach is sincere, answers will come directly to you. Like attracts like. When? It could be any time.
Fair enough jl I wont ask again
DOR…Sounds like a great idea. I’d need a pretty fair amount of advance notice, but would love to meet up.
On a related note, my apologies for being so absent. Finally got married, shipping the kids to and from Paris and London for school stints, and working madly to complete some paintings for July 1 (yeah, I actually fancy myself an artist as well as a beloved and well-respected Villan…wink wink and all that).
Anyway, new post up.