With all that’s been going on the past few weeks, and in light of Lerner’s statement of intent, one topic has been raised that I feel needs scrutiny and that is the issue of fan ownership. We have had prominent Villa fans such as Stan Collymore debate it, as well as the Supporters Trust and numerous blogs/forums. I think there’s a couple questions that we as Villa fans need to answer.
1) 1) Do we want it?
2) 2) Can we make it happen?
3) 3) Is it viable long term?
Speaking for myself and, judging by all the feelings and comments on the subject I’ve heard and read, on behalf of the vast majority of Aston Villa fans I can say the answer to the first question is an unequivocal ‘YES’.
It’s not just Villa though, I’d say that the vast majority of football fans worldwide would want genuine fan ownership of the club. We all feel like we own our clubs – the Villa is ours no matter who owns stocks or shares. However, this is where I feel most the frustration is bared.
Why? We don’t have any say in how to run the club, we’re not privy to any decision making processes nd therefore it feels like an ‘us and them’ situation – they are ruining our club.
There is, of course, much to be frustrated about, from the ups and downs of the Lerner ‘boom and bust’ to the lack of any recent silverware and success – for ‘the grandest of old clubs’ as Collymore puts it, and no doubt our resident historian John will attest to.
There’s a generation of Villa fans without any memory of silverware, just stories of past memories. The problem is that this lack of success also plants a hunger that in this fast food generation only one thing can remedy – an owner with more money than sense, someone who will see the club as a pure status symbol.
Is that what we really want though? Do we want to actually own a piece of our club or do we want the shortcut to success through someone else? I’d argue these are mutually exclusive.
Looking around the world, there are numerous fan owned models. The first is the ‘German Model’ and Bayern Munich. As with all clubs in the Bundesliga, with the exception of 2 historically company owned clubs Wolfsburg and Bayer Leverkusen, fans own a minimum of 51% stake in their club.
The Bayern Munich member’s club, which has a total of 220,000 paid up members, own 81.8% of the club (the rest owned by Adidas and Audi). In 2012/13 the club achieved a record turnover of €430m, operating profit of €95.6m, and profit after tax of €14m.
Bayern are one of the most successful clubs in the world with huge commercial, TV and other revenue but the success is replicated on a smaller scale throughout the league. Hardly any club runs in the red, and in 2012/13 Bundesliga clubs made a total £47m profit compared to a total £207m loss in the Premier League.
Consider in addition that the PL gets £2.4bn in revenue compared to Budesliga £1.78bn. This while season ticket prices in the Bundesliga average out to £207 while in the PL average out to £468.
The German model works – it’s as simple as that, and who doesn’t want cheap ticket and financial prudency fused with success? Where the Bundesliga fall behind the PL is in the razzmatazz and PR. Part of that comes solely from the money thrown around the league and, in all honest, it’s something we probably learnt from the Americans – a flash and scary ride but an exciting one
Contrasting the Bundesliga, there is the Spanish ‘La Liga’. The majority of the league are owned and run as corporations apart from four clubs – FC Barcelona, Real Madrid, Athletic Bilbao, and CA Osasuna. This came about after the Spanish Government, fed up from not receiving taxes due, forced clubs to become privately owned organisations in 1992 if they were not run ‘in the black’ for the preceding 5 years.
It can’t be said that this move actually helped the clubs or the Spanish government for that matter. Figures from January 2012 showed La Liga clubs owed the government €750m in taxes. The situation is Spain is very complicated, with an imploding economy and millions out of work. IN addition, most of the clubs in La Liga huge levels of debt, and this is exasperated by the huge advantage Barcelona and Real Madrid hold over the rest with their TV rights deal (€140m each compared to an average of €20m each for the rest).
Taking Barcelona as an example, they have roughly 170,000 paid up members. In 2012/13 they announced revenues of €491m, operating profit of €118 and profit after tax of €32m. Although they do have a huge debt currently standing at €330m, they can service this debt comfortably.
Obviously Bayern and Barcelona are two monsters of football. It’s a level that Villa are far from at present, but we can still aspire to those plans. The core of these football clubs are based on things we can build – philosophy, tradition, continuity, and ethos.
We have the tradition, but we’ve certainly lacked a coherent philosophy. Looking at a club closer to home we have Swansea FC, who are 20% owned by their supporters trust. Here’s a club of humbler means than Villa but still outperforming us on and off the pitch.
In the year 2012/13, Swansea announced a turnover of £65.2m (less than Villa’s £90m) but with operating profits of £20.6m and a net profit of £15.3m. How did this come to be? In 2001 Swansea were relegated to the fourth tier of English football, chalking up debts of £800k, and were sold to Australian Tom Petty for £1 as he took on the debt.
From there the Swansea City Supporters Trust formed a consortium, along with local businessman Huw Jenkins and others, and bought the club for £20,000 (of which the supporters trust had 20%).
Despite being almost relegated out of the football league in 2003, surviving on the last day of the season by beating Hull 4-2, they started to move forwards. Since then they were promoted to League 1, moved to the Liberty stadium in 2005, got subsequently promoted to the Championship under Roberto Martinez in 2008, and then eventually made it to the top flight in 2011 under Brendan Rodgers.
It is that solid building over time that leaves them in a position to pay dividends to its shareholders nowadays. Total dividends for 2012/13 come to £2.4m of which the supporters trust get £480k, though they have put in around £200k into the club over the years. The trust members voted to use the money to look to acquire more shares in the club. Unsurprisingly, no one is looking to sell at the moment.
While Swansea can be heralded as a success story, the reality is that fan ownership in the UK is generally prompted by prior financial difficulties, with the most notable example being Portsmouth. Their supporters trust agreed a deal for a 60% stake in the club plus ownership of the stadium for £3m.
The supporters raised close to £2m from around 2000 members with the rest coming from what they called ‘presidents’ – the richer fans. We all know the struggle they have had in recent times, relegated to League 2 with debts of £100m – this is the true nightmare story of how things can go wrong when you spend more than your level.
So what now for Villa? Can a fan ownership model be worked out? As I mentioned earlier, I’m yet to find an example of a UK club who have gone down this route without being in massive financial trouble, or being a new club being born due to the old club dying or moving location.
If, and it’s a big if, Villa fans could make this work, it would be unprecedented in modern times. Despite recent problems on the pitch, Villa are still ranked number 7 in the league in terms of revenue generated.
How would it work though? According to reports Randy wants £200m for the club. Whether the club is worth that is debatable, but let’s use Randy’s suggested figures. If we want a majority stake of the club we need to raise at least £100m.
Now I know Villa has over a million likes on Facebook, but asking everyone to put in £100 is a bit of a stretch! How much could we raise in reality?
I’d like to think that with the right vision/marketing/drive Villa could achieve a base figure of 50,000 members worldwide. Maybe that figure is optimistic, but let’s use this figure for an example.
If we had 50,000 initial members each would have to pay £2,000 to get to that £100m level. That figure isn’t viable in my view. A realistic amount to gather from fans might be £500 to £1000 but that would mean 100,000 to 200,000 members – something I think isn’t viable either!
Going back to the German model, it is clear that the Bundesliga clubs benefited hugely from hosting the World Cup in 2006. The government and clubs made a huge investment in stadium and infrastructure upgrades and this, along with strict financial guidelines, the ’50 +1’ rule and relaxed rules on commercial enterprises, has ensured that the Bundesliga is booming.
Could the local council provide any assistance with the acquisition? Draft budgets for Birmingham in 2014-15 suggests that the council is looking at making cuts of £85.7m with even bigger cuts of £200m estimated for 2015-16, leaving that option ruled out.
The only other option then would be private finance, but someone would have to guarantee any money coming in. In theory, we could raise a loan secured on the club/stadium itself as the Glazers have done with Manchester United, but that has risks. It also begs the question, that if an individual has the financial nous and acumen to pull this off, why would he do it for the fans and not for himself?
So however the money is gathered, it all comes down to accruing a lot of it. If Villa fans could raise £10m between themselves it would be one hell of an achievement, and maybe open the door to part ownership.
It seem unlikely Lerner would agree to such a deal given he would want to sell the club as a whole, so that option seems unlikely short term.
Moving on to the last question, is it viable? This is the one where Villa fans need to take a hard look at themselves and ask what do we really want from our club?
If it’s instant success, then there’s no point to carrying on these discussions, just sit and wait for a sugar daddy to come along sweep us off our feet, though we could be waiting forever.
Otherwise, the road to fan ownership is a long one and it is one that cannot put the club’s future in jeopardy. Each season we would have to spend within our means and not speculate wildly in order to achieve success which is never guaranteed.
The good news is we are out of the financial doldrums so the horrible losses of the last few years should now be a thing of the past. Increased money may help us break even which may not sound great, but much better than the £50m losses we have been posting.
In addition, the last remnants of the crazy spending era are almost out the door. We are on our way to financial self-sufficiency, albeit at the expense of the quality in the squad.
Look at how Swansea progressed though, and you’ll see it needs leadership from the front – and they stuck to a footballing philosophy which has paid huge dividends.
This is where we are hugely lacking. With the right manager, we would not struggle even with a lack of quality in the current squad. I feel we have enough quality in the squad as it is to be comfortably lower-mid table, higher than avoiding relegation. If Villa fan ownership does become a reality, the manager will have to play a huge role in our success.
In my opinion, we can do it. As long as the club is run with financial prudency as a long term aim, increased revenues would be able to service any loan.
It would mean that there would be no mega star signings, being a club looking to profit from developing players, and reinvest the money. At that point, itt becomes a matter of having a good procurement team and a good youth system.
How much has Atletico Madrid made over the years from the sales of Fernando Torres, Sergio Aguero, Falcao and now Diego Costa? How much has Benfica made from the sales of David Luiz, Angel Di Maria and Nemanja Matic?
These aren’t clubs who are falling into ruin having sold their best players – Atletico are in the Champions League final this year.
Getting back to money, we’d also have ongoing membership fees; which could be somewhere around the £100 mark yearly. Barcelona membership costs €177 yearly, Bayern Munich costs €60 while Benfica’s costs €156. 100,000 members @ £100 would bring in £10m yearly, which we could use to service the debt or try to purchase more shares, either way it’s an added revenue stream though it does come out of our pockets.
The hardest part in all this is raising that initial capital to buy part of the club. For that we need a strong figurehead as spokesperson for the members and, of course, this person needs to be a Villa fan. In addition, this person needs to be identifiable and known already.
For all his views on the subject, I would suggest that man could be Stan Collymore. Of course he would need financial muscle behind him. I hear Merv King, the former governor of the Bank of England, is a Villa fan – maybe he can get his old chums to print us some more money (tongue firmly in cheek here). I’m hoping our own Mark King is a relation. Doesn’t David Cameron have some rich Arab friends?
Ultimately, there’s a reason why only clubs in huge financial difficulties are most likely to be taken over by the fans – because the costs are so little in the first place. Many of these clubs had to fall before they could rise again.
Ultimately, the question is do we want it? Well, do we?
The Author
Ree Khalid
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I would front of the queue with my 2k. However, it wouldn’t change things, as soon as there were a couple of bad results the Boo boys would be out in force
ree
excellent piece, it would be great for us to have controlling interest in the club to prevent the kind of thing that’s happened to us and promote a community feel. although It would take a very special someone to own the rest without controlling interest. we are a community on AVL and most days the talk revolves around not agreeing much 🙂 promises would have to be made for someone to lump in £100m on that basis knowing he could be voted out by us with £200 at stake.
A body is only as good as its head and we need a strong leader to do what’s right and not what’s best for him good luck with that. the alternative is own the lot and employ a board, again people of the right calibre have to be found, loving the club wouldn’t be enough. operating the club as non-profit would fit fan ownership but it will need that figurehead with the right vision for the fans to buy into. in principle I would be in
Hello Ree,
Great leader, very informative. I like the German system, if only we had a ruling organisation that was capable then we wouldn’t have the Lerner’s of this World destroying the game. Don’t have a clue about finance or re-structuring and certainly don’t have any ££££ so basically useless asking me, sorry.
Great article Ree, really well reasoned… My thoughts are:
1/ no
2/ no
3/ no
We had our slim chance with doug when we never met our pre flotation price
Many of us found out to our cost and lost our holding when the yank came, We never purchased to make a profit just to be part of something we held dear
Now we have no chance after the financial mess lerner has put us in and obscene players wages
I too have the 51% dream But 51 of £250m is a bridge to far to cross
But with Lerner determined to take us down the divisions we may get that chance
Id doubt we could get 10k interested
Good piece Ree, very well laid out argument. It would be difficult to achieve at present because of the negativity around the club though, but who knows , if the villa players bought into it and started playing like it meant something to them and if lerner dropped the asking price considerably, it wouldn’t be that far fetched.
No to collymore though. That gobshite had his chance to do what the rest of us only dream of , and he quickly showed his true nature.
Ree – an outstanding article and most interesting.
Yes, I believe fan ownership is the essence of what a ‘club’ is – the very word means a conglomerate of like-minded people who band together to create a body, usually for entertainment.
I keep on coming back to this argument over and over and I agree that going back to old principles is the best way forward.
My answers:
1) yes.
2) yes.
3) yes.
… with the proviso that to make it happen properly requires a sound forum through which the fans’ interests are channelled.
Vive la Bastille! 🙂
Where do I send my cheque for £100 (or whatever)?
Prox: It would be difficult to achieve at present because of the negativity around the club
The negativity exists only because of what we have in place right now.
If fans are real fans they will want to do something about it, surely?
Now John, , its a bit early in the day for ‘real fans’ rhetoric, this ain’t the Church of scientology. In the context of what ree was examining, I’m suggesting that ordinary potential investors to whom the share price wouldn’t be a pittance would like to see some commitment from the existing stakeholders other than just payi g their wages until something better comes along. We’re talking about ordinary ‘joe plumber’s’ and the like who may not be rich but that doesn’t make them fiscally stupid either.
Don’t think it would ever get going really.
Apparently Lambert will be able to pick his new back room staff and even pay compo for his new bullies
He ain’t going anywhere, nor is Randy any time soon
Pilkinton and Holt will be on there way then if Lambert gets to sign players. Tonev brother. Barry isn’t good enough for Lambert
1.)Yes definitely
2.)Probably not
3.)Yes!
At least it’s a good day of football.
Come on Derby, don’t want QPR coming back up 🙂 will fuck them up
come on Atletico.
Spend less on players and wages than we do so hopefully Lambert won’t ever use it as an excuse again for how shit a manger he is who is somehow still the manager of Villa despite all the records he has broken
Prox
I take your point. In my view this subject really needs a ‘1968 Digbeth’ type meeting to see what is viable – if anything.
Ree,
A great article and very thought provoking but I just feel that this ship has sailed, I think a few years ago when clubs were not valued very high we had a chance to be part of the club but I think in todays market unless as you say you can get hundreds of thousands involved in such a scheme that the figures that will be quoted are out of the reach of the man on the street, some may not even feel inclined to invest if they have the money because lots of fans feel disenfranchised from their club, and when that trust and connection is gone it may never return.
Steamer / ST75,
You may find a little surprise in your bins later as I found it difficult to get my arse up to your letter boxes.
UTV
A good article but sadly around 9 months out of date regarding the Spanish economy. The GDP rose 0.35% in the last quarter and stagnated the previous 2. The economy here at grass roots level is ok and the construction industry is back on it’s feet. Don’t believe the doom and gloom stores from the British press. They contain less truth than a Lambert post match interview. The German model is certainly the way forward. I am a consultant for a German company based in Gibraltar and they are extremely proud of their standards.
Thanks for all the kind words guys.
Sidcowan – I feel that if the fans did own a portion of the club, there would be a sense of pride that would be unique in the PL (yeh I know, Swansea, but they are not on the level this club is at). Plus with ownership comes a say in how the club is run so there will be a sense we can contribute. Course there will still be some boo boys though thats just part of life.
Mark – good point about who would invest in the rest. In Germany they invest to give their brand awareness. I mean this is exactly why Abu Dhabi invested in Man City. Id still think as long as the club is run well, we would be posting profits which means dividends for the fans to invest how hey see fit and also a return for an investor. And you’re 100% right about needing really strong leaders.
Steamer – I think genuine fan ownership in the UK is something that has to be backed by the regulating authorities, just as the Germans did. Maybe they can make a rule that ALL owners MUST sell a stake in the club IF a fan consortium can raise enough capitol. Maybe up to a level of 10%?
Kev and Southwest – yeh it would have been a lot easier if we bought shares when the club was valued at £62m (def undervalued imo). But it didnt happen, there was no clear organisation who could represent Villa fans. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!
Prox – we need a figurehead and I cant think of a more prominent Villa fan in the spotlight constantly. Like him or loathe him you can tell he cares a lot about club. I remember when he signed for us it was the most excited over a signing I have ever gotten. A Villa fan and bags of talent playing as striker. It is one of the biggest ‘what if’ I have over my years as a Villa fan. Everyone has issues though, his played out in the public spotlight.
John – maybe you could shed some light on what time in history this club turned from a member owned organisation to a private one?
If feel like something like this would be monumental. I have my own doubts whether we can raise £100m but I definitely think we could raise £10m+. This would get us representation at board level and a say in how the club is run. Course that would also depend on if Lerner would want to sell such a stake in the club. It may only be a pipe dream but its worth discussing. I feel like the newly reformed Supporters Trust could play a vital role.
Hi Ree,
The AVST aren’t a particularly new thing, and they have mainly just been yes men during the course of the Lerner era.
For the fans to buy into the club would require a massive shift in mentality – we currently expect rich men to burn money hand over fist just to keep going. If that was our own money, I doubt we’d be as happy to maintain such a mentality.
Don’t get me wrong – I don’t mind paying money into the club as I do that every season with regard to buying items from season tickets to clothing, but I’d expect a good return on an investment which is what owning the club would be in my eyes.
In short, if people had the choice to buy shares in Villa with no expected return, I’m sure you’d get some who would be happy with that, but for the majority of those wanting to spend their hard earned on shares, they are generally expecting a return that I think is less than feasible in the scope of the club’s setup at present.
Had we been in the same place as Portsmouth, things would have been different and maybe we could have built from there but, thankfully, we haven’t dropped that far, and I certainly wouldn’t want us to have to drop there.
Great article Ree, my answers are likely:
1) Not me personally in the current circumstances, maybe if things were significantly different with the rules in the league.
2) Yes, but it would be a hard sell in my eyes – people get frustrated paying for season tickets for little to no return, why the same with shares and ongoing payments?
3) Perhaps if massive shifts change and the big teams run off to their own league not governed by UEFA, but the whole reason why Lerner’s recent seasons have been poor is because he’s tried to operate it as a business and, in my view, I doubt there are significant numbers of fans who actively want to hand money over for little or no return compared to another stock or investment.
Just my views, but I think after the views expressed on the recent years at the club, to expect it to be more acceptable when it is our own money being ploughed in, I have my doubts.
*shrug*
I agree with Prox re: attitudes though – there will always be some who want more. When we were sixth, I vividly remember the views of fans wanting MON to give up because he couldn’t get us fourth, and that was with unsustainable funding.
So, whilst every fan is different, I do think there will be people who you’ll never please, even if you’re winning the title – for those that are only happy getting more than they currently have, it is a never ending cycle.
QPR on there way up. They will have money to spend
Well QPR are back!!!…..thanks to Richaed Dunne, Junior Hoylett and bobby Zamora..!!
Dunne or Vlaar…???
Matt – you’re right it would take a massive change in mentality and i feel its something we could definitely achieve. We want whats best for the club, if theres greater transparency in what we make and what we can afford then i feel the fans would accept it.
Not too sure of the hisyory of AVST but wasnt it relauched lately?
For your point about Villa fans wanting a return on their investment, surely physical ownership of the club you support and a say in how its run is return enough? We’re not investors we are fans. If we were purely investors it would make zero sense to invest in Villa.
As for fans wanting different things thats always going to be the case. But what every fan wants is pride in their club and this would achieve that.
frem
QPR in dire straights finacially they were shitting it in case they didn’t get promoted. green won them that game
Excellent article Ree, and the only way forward may be through the fans with some backing from major West Midland businesses and sponsorship, and the only reason for not doing it, is a negative attitude.
A can do attitude is capable of achieving amazing things.
Ree
The club only became truly private when Randy took over in 2006.
Before that we’d been on the stock exchange for 9 years, and before that a private limited company (with many shareholders) for 101 years. Before that a limited company without profits for 7 years and before that simply a club.
AVST has been sorta re-launched but I think it’s basically the same as before with the recent situation causing ’em to be seen to be doing something.
All I can say is that we should be organising ourselves a la Atletico Madrid and forget about the fear of money. ‘Fear’ always gets in the way of a good idea.
Mark- that’s why I didn’t want them to come up, would have been the end of them. They get 70 million now though. Leicester have a fair bit of money to spend as well
Is there 3 worse teams than us at the moment ? There certainly ain’t 3 worse managers, we have the worst
Paul – i feel a lot can be done with genuine commitment. It would take a lot of faith from the Villa faithful because there will be a lot of scepticism out there. Thats why we need strong people we can trust to spearhead a campaign.
John – I really admire what Atletico are doing atm and that is all down to the coach and players. They have managed to find a winning formula. But financially they are really poorly run and have been for a while. Diego Costa will be sold to help with that. The team next yr will not be the same without him. Lets hope they beat Real for all the underdogs out there including us.
Good evening Ree .
I would echo John L’s comments : an outstanding and well thought out article . Thankyou .
It sounds a great way for our football club to go forward so I would say yes every time . I also think Stan C would be a good figurehead . Here is a man whose made his mistakes , has admitted them , had demons to conquer with depression and has fought back .
He knows his football and is a villa fan.
Instead of supporters feeling used and exploited due to having a passive role with no control, they would feel a greater sense of responsibility , involvement and connection. It follows the fans will be more patient and accepting IMO . Supporters feel they are being ripped off by absentee owners , whose motives are not always clear . The supporters’ownership model would reassure fans that the club is being ran and developed for the right reasons .
With a board of talented individuals and a vibrant elected supporters representative forum , it should be easier to represent the wants and needs of the majority of supporters which will make the club stronger .
We have said on here before, that There has been a lack of footballing philosophy which has stopped us making a smooth progression through management changes (mostly by Runtingz:-)) This has to be addressed whoever owns the club . This would be the cushion we need to see us through player and management changes . It’s infuriating to observe the way the club swaps and changes , reacting rather than planning it’s course with a footballing vision .
Swansea’a stats are impressive . Whilst Swansea are a much smaller club , if it works for them , why can’t it work for a bigger outfit
My friend supports them and they are sold out every week – you just can’t get a ticket . I know it’s a much smaller stadium , but we’ve more supporters . Imagine being able to fill out VP and really making it a fortress .
On the subject of football style and philosophy , have just seen McLaren , after being robbed of the promotion by QPR , saying he’s sticking to his football philosophy .
Note that Richard Dunne was MOTM , fully deserved . Feel sorry for Derby though .
Completely agree with you Jenny. Also with the playoff final, I thought Derby deserved it. I think Mclaren has been treated unfairly by the media in the past and had been proved a good coach.
Yes Ree – Derby looked far superior . How cruel for QPR to score from their only shot on target. McLaren has achieved a good style at Derby . I can see him in the Prem next year unless he stays loyal to Derby , Could see him at Saints if Poncinetto goes to spurs.
Ree & Jenny,
I could’nt be more opposed to your suggestion of Stan Collymore as a figurehead for anything. Someones actions are the only logical way of judging them and yet you’re prepared to overlook the actions of Collymore because why ? he talks a good fight? Make whatever excuses you want for Collymore but did McGraths ‘demons’ ever stop him giving his all for a club with with which he had no previous emotional or historical connection even with his actual physical problems? Are you seriously saying that you would look past true friends of villa like Ian Taylor for example , to go for a self-obsessed charlatan like Collymore ?? Its not like you did’nt see him when he was at villa , you remember the circus so take off the rose tinted glasses please.
Good to see more positive comments from Jen and everyone…Will come back later, but time for football now, and the opportunity to enjoy my beautiful country retreat having just finished it today, after 2 years of sorting it out.
Prox – he was young and mixed up then. I’m judging him on the man he is now , not then . I’m not suggesting he get the job for his contribution as a player but for his knowledge of the game . I listen to him regularly and of all the pundits he talks the most sense out of any of them, I don’t think you can judge people on their past misdemeanours for ever – people change , they mature and I prefer to forgive and forget rather than condemn . 🙂
Prox – I would equally champion Ian Taylor . I love Tayls – but Ree didn’t suggest him. I was commenting on the one Ree put forward . I m sorry I feel for Stan C – I can’t help it .
Sounds wonderful Paul, enjoy your hard earned work ! 🙂
Also Prox , Stan C was and still suffers from depression . It’s an illness where you can’t just shrug it off and go out and perform . In fact it must be hell being in the public eye too. He’s acknowledged his big mistakes and he’s been brave enough to come out and talk about it and promote more understanding .
Jen ,
I appreciate your attitude towards collymore is kinder than mine , but your opinion seems to be based on what he is ‘saying’ now rather than anything he’s ever done . I’ve also listened to him and I’ve heard nothing in any way better than the tactics discussions Matt Turvey has on here at times. His knowledge of the game is purely rhetorical , he has never managed a team , he has’nt even taken exams for a coaches badge ! He’s a pundit with a television production company focused on his punditry .
As Morrissey would say ” You just have’nt earned it yet baby”!!
We’ll put together piece Ree,
I do confess that I skimmed it a little, I have a very low attention span, soz!
I think the Derby result throws up a very valid point tho, even with most of the possession and numerical advantage, one piece of skill and desire and the game is gone.
There are no guarantees in football, even 100 mill can be thrown down the drain if all the other pieces of the puzzle are not in place. Even then it can still be a lottery, not only do you have to be better than you were but you have to be better than the rest. Then even if you are better you have to have some good fortune too.
So in answer to your header…
Yes we want it
No WE can’t make it happen we are just the fans
And No It cannot possibly be sustainable given the cash involved
Now I’m off to watch the Madrid derby.
VTID
Jen ,
Please stay off the depression angle , I just might know a little about depression and its effects and to avoid offence to anyone , I will end my contribution to this discussion by saying that I am around this earth long enough to spot a blatant bullshitter who manipulates situations to their own ends.
We’re not going to agree on this so lets park it .
Have a good weekend.
Cheers . You too .
Such a shame on Atletico. They have shown it’s not about money, you just need a manager who knows what he’s doing .
Hey Ree!
Thanks for writing for us.
As for the questions you’ve posed, I’d say yes to all three in an ideal world, but yes, no and no in this world. I see both sides in JL’s, Rod’s and Niccolo Proxopera’s posts.
I an disappointed with many decisions PL has made this past year and I look forward to new and better things. In the meantime, he’s the guy tasked with holding our club together, so it’s probably best to let him get on with the job and wish him well.
I like it Trinity , well spotted, a worthy opponent indeed!
Does anyone know if a professional foul is a straight red? I always thought it was . The sending off in the derby qpr game was for him being the last man where as I thought he should of gone for a professional foul anyhow?
Dont think so mark, athletico ch took out ronaldo on halfway line last night and was’ nt even cautioned but there were other players behind them.
Athletico……the spanish crystal palace.
prox
there’s talk about awarding a goal when someone is brought down cynically to stop a goal scoring chance,makes sense to me, as in the derby game QPR could of kept their player on the pitch but would have had to have changed their game plan rather than unfairly getting that last minute goal and winning a game they were barely in.
Trinity I an disappointed with many decisions PL has made this past year and I look forward to new and better things. In the meantime, he’s the guy tasked with holding our club together, so it’s probably best to let him get on with the job and wish him well.
Yes, a good point and one I don’t disagree with in the slightest.
However, there’s a sale of the club that’s taking place anyway and PL knows that. Therefore anything in this discussion is all related, surely?
Putting The Idea Into Practise
I feel that Ree’s proposal is worthy of much further investigation and is one that I would not like to see fall on its face without a proper discussion.
There is a great danger that Ree’s foresight will be just seen as simply a discussion piece that is not meant for the real world.
I am sure it would be possible to set up a teleconference in all the major cities (including Brum, of course) to give fans all round the world (well, at least in specific cities in North America, Australia, Sweden and Britain) to take this topic to another level.
What is a professional foul ? Is it when your last man and you just hack down the player so he doesn’t score ?
Not sure about a goal be awarded for a last man tackle. It wouldn’t feel right winning without actually scoring. You know our strikers wouldn’t score the one on one any way. Going down to 10 men is enough. They might start awarding goals for time wasting and for getting 5 yellows in a game or something. You would win 3-2 without actually seeing a goal
A goal is a goal basically 🙂 it shouldn’t change
Or just bring the rule in after the 80th min or something ? If you get hacked down in the first 10 mins, you then have 70 mins 11 v 10 to score which you should do. If you get hacked down after 80 mins, then there isn’t much time to get the advantage of the extra man so get a goal awarded instead.
In theory its not a bad idea mark , but the application of that rule could be a problem. Do you think the refs in the pr. Lg have the testicular fortitude for that kind of decision?
prox and frem
It could open a can of worms but so has the offside rule tinkering but we barely notice it now. I think I’d rather see 11 v 11 all game and the certainty of a goal would be more deterrent than a red and a ban as yesterdays game proved. effectively derby were cheated out of £70mil. If that was industry it would be taken to court. far from not seeing any goals you could have more as it would stop the offence in the first place as there would be no point, or the keeper could what he’s there for make a save or the player misses. what happened yesterday changed that game, as QPR would of had to attack and given Derby more chance of scoring as it was they parked the bus and got lucky.
frem
it used to be any foul done consciously or devious play was a professional foul. now its more goal scoring chance stopping tackles shirt pulling etc. under the old rules they would all be off for tugging each other 😉
John
I agree it is well worth exploring but as I said Its going to take a strong leader to pull it together Ian Taylor perhaps for starters? worth an e-mail maybe?
Morning all.
Prox – re the Collymore suggestion. I suggested him because he is the one that very publicly put out the suggestion that Villa fans should take the club back for themselves. His own time at the club was a huge dissapointment for me, but I don’t hold that against him for ever. After learning of his issues at least I understood what was happening back then, not that I find it an excuse. I still feel he clearly loves the club and has its best interests at heart. Whatever your views on him as a person are, isn’t that what we all want?
But I would be equally as happy with another legend such as Ian Taylor or Brian Little etc.
John – I definitely think its needs looking at in a lot more detail to see if it could be worked out. For that we need people in the right places to push it along. I know AVST did a survey recently asking the question whether we want fan ownership or not and if so whether we would be willing to put our own money into it. I know I definitely would. But it would be a case of how many would want and have the means to do so. The figures needed are astronomical. The results of that survey should be interesting.
Ree
It could well be that Stan’s suggestion may have been with the thought of the club being bought in its entirety by the fans. As you have rightly identified we may well come unstuck if we were dependent on ordinary fans.
I would suggest that supporters with financial clout need to be approached to form the main part of the shareholding (King, Kennedy, Cameron – any others?), but that would definitely need a coordinator of some authority to reach them.
Maybe that’s Stan, but perhaps it could be a combination of Stan, Ian Taylor and even Charlie Aitken to bring it about.
I also thought of Carl Chinn to coordinate such a move, but I know he has pressing family issues at present so perhaps the time is not right for him.
The thing is that celebrity fans are only fans when the club is successful, when the dark times appear then they do one. What would it take for Camoron and King to gather a consortium to contribute to an effort to buy the club ?
I wouldn’t be too sure that Lerner, as most people have stated, would sell only to a group that respected the club and its traditions, he’s already almost choked the last gasp out of the club and its obvious that he just wants his £££ back irrespective of the damage done. It wouldn’t totally amaze me if he sold out to someone with the same amount of money who would keep Lambert on to save £££ and With the same clueless admin that we have at the moment.
Thats the worry Steamer, Randy might just sell to someone who will keep our worst manager in history and try and do things in the cheap
If the rumours are true, the New owner isn’t much wealthier than Randy so we probably won’t get anywhere. We need someone with real financial backing
Steamer: It wouldn’t totally amaze me if he sold out to someone with the same amount of money who would keep Lambert on to save £££ and With the same clueless admin that we have at the moment.
That, alas, is a distinct possibility if he’s simply wanting his money back. He has intimated that’s not quite the case, but we’ll have to see on that one.
More the reason for a supporters’ takeover.
surely if someone was going to buy us we would have to be upgraded to stay in the league and generate income or whats the point of outlaying £200mil+ . you would have no hope of getting it back. also interest rates will be going up soon so the money would be safer in a bank. as a property investment aston villa is a lame duck as it has to many other aspects your paying for on top of the property to make it a safe haven for cash. prem football is not a massive profit maker for most teams especially once you are on the treadmill you dare not get off and have to continually invest. so whoever comes in I would think has to want us to get champs at least or why invest the money?
lerner after all invested £62m to buy us and has chucked in £300mil overall, think what that would be like if his starting point had been £200mil !!!
The mega money required makes a supporters’ takeover virtually impossible. The wealthy have depowered the average fan with what they’ve been willing to pay to own and control football clubs.
Locals and fans world wide don’t have the bread or general wherewithal to raise the cash to buy and run the club. Still it is a topic that merits more discussion, especially the practical considerations of a takeover. It might conclude that it’s just a pipe dream for fans of a Prem League club. Population wise, cities like Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester aren’t big. No, these clubs are way over priced and out of our reach. It’s the league of the billionaires. I don’t like it, but it just is. I agree with the idea of fan ownership in principle. It used to be doable.
Mega Bucks
Mmmmm…
I’ve already pointed to Atletico Madrid. OK, they’ve had to sell their best players (and made plenty of that) to keep going, but no-one can say they’ve not been successful.
Maybe Villa – in the past 3 years – could have achieved the same sort of things if the club had been properly organised and run?
If A.M. can achieve what they have without mega-bucks, then why not anyone else?
JL
Good on Atletico. I found this interesting reading. I don’t think the powers that be in the UK would be so kind to Villa.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/04/08/uk-soccer-spain-atletico-finances-idUKBREA370J420140408
Trinity
Thanks for that. I was aware that A.M. are not in a financially glorious situation … but why look at the negatives? They have succeeded on the pitch … and that’s what it’s all about.
As I said, they sell to pay their way.
But at least Villa don’t have a ” crumbling … stadium” to worry about. And Villa already have a good infrastructure.
I’m a firm believer that with proper team management (without spending megabucks), and with proper domestic cup aspirations, Villa could have achieved a lot more this past 3 years. And I’m sure a fans takeover would ensure that the right team policies would be followed.
It’s a risk … but, hey, what do you achieve without risking anything? And I’m talking from experience of having risked even my career on what people at the time thought was daft!
Went to the ireland /turkey game this evening and Irelands lack of football ability was shocking. People were on here in january talking about signing Aidan Mcgeady and all I can say is we dodged a bullet there .
The other thing is the only players that i saw for ireland that have mastered the basic skills of football to anywhere near international standard are o’shea , wilson , hmm maybe whelan but most of all Wes Houlihan .
Theres no doubt he’s limited but he can actually play football and he’s always looking for the ball. He’s far more creative than anybody currently in the villa setup and if we are going to be shopping in bargaintown this summer , he would’nt be a bad shout even for just a different option off the bench. I know , people will say we can and should do better than Houlihan , but to be brutally honest , beggars cant be chosers , and for a million or two he has to be value.
“and I’m sure a fans takeover would ensure that the right team policies would be followed.”
John ,
Tell me ,what makes you so sure ??
Still looking for more on here with a can do attitude…..Villa fans can organise themselves. It is possible to form a limited company with capital and borrowing powers to put forward a long term plan to buy the club and run it successfully, but it has to be a business plan that holds water and shows how it can achieve its objectives, which is not just about having a great team. it is about marketing, selling the dream, giving the fans world-wide what they want. Producing merchandise which appeals, and everyone wants to buy….it is about creating the need……Create the need and watch the product take off…!!!
Prox:
Who knows better than the fans what it is they wish to see on the pitch?!
From knowing what we want to see can be interpreted through to its implementation and management.
John , that’s a lovely idea but one of the very least of the problems facing such an enterprise is consensus. Villa fans would have to be prepared to endure possibly 10 years of transition with maybe a relegation throw in for good measure. Right now we’re odds on to be relegated next season , we need either a lot of investment immediately or a prolonged period of gradual upgrading of the playing staff. Would your villa commune with the apparently newly beatified, st. Stanley as its glorious leader, have the stomach to see the project through the dark times that come in the early days of every commercial project?
This ain’t a rhetorical question John, I don’t know the answer but my experience of people in large groups doesn’t fill me with confidence. For example, you lot are sending a bunch of ukips to represent you in europe , the French have chosen a load of le pens rabble, and the irish in our infinite wisdom have decided that sinn fein have something useful to say for us.
I’m afraid I’m with Prox on this one.
Buying a business is never a straightforward affair even with a few similarly minded individuals and a willing seller involved. Even then there are disagreements over many details and even some critical strategic decisions. There are two points I have real difficulty with though.
The first is whether fans have better knowledge of football than the average businessman. Just look at the spread of opinion on this site. I think some people on here talk complete bullocks some of the time and I know they feel just the same about me.
The second point involves access to additional funds when we want to buy Ronaldo or Bent or Holt.
Do we keep dipping into our pockets every time we want to step up to the next level or is the assumption that out advances will always be from steady organic growth?
Sorry. . . . I just don’t see it.
(Ps. Really well written article though . . . . read every word despite its length)
Prox: one of the very least of the problems facing such an enterprise is consensus
Oh, yes!! d’accord! I totally agree. That is indeed the challenge!
But after 30+ years of mismanagement at the club do you think another non-Villa-appreciative-owner would be an improvement?! 😉
The club started as a … club. And that is what sport is basically about. We must get back to basics i.m.o.
R0bb0:
My answer is what I have already said about Atletico Madrid. They don’t buy big. We just need to lower our sights and do the best with the resources available.
To add…
I’d like to say that I recognise the issues that Prox and everyone have raised about going down a supporters-ownership route.
And the issues raised are fair ones. The answer (surely) is not to be put off by the obstacles but if the route is the right one then to stride down it being aware of the potential pitfalls and be prepared to face up to them when they occur.
Great things have never been achieved by being timid.
Prox
With you on the euro voting shocking turnout of 35% for uk people are so apathetic or pissed off that we could walk into ww3 and nobody would notice. Apparently German business offer the top university students around the world €100,000 to work for them before they have finished their degree. This is part of their immigration policy we get 1000’s that just fancy a handout and a house. You have to say there really isn’t a group out there with a strong enough vision to be worth voting for and this is what happens.
Segway to buying the villa , anything can be done you just have to willing to pay the price. I maintain it will take a strong leader and a benefactor or benefactors willing to put up the money then sell shares until over say, 5-10 years it’s owned by the fans.
Mark: This is part of their immigration policy we get 1000′s that just fancy a handout and a house.
C’mon Mark I thought you were made of better stuff than this!
There was an item on Al-Jazeera the other night about a Scottish fish-processing plant in east Scotland that can only find Polish (and other immigrants) to do the job as the locals won’t do the work. 100s of jobs are involved, not a few.
And this is not an isolated story. There are many immigrants that come in and take what jobs they can – they’re not afraid of work of any kind. Nor do they have pretensions of being above that sort of work.
We should be looking at ourselves and not what’s wrong with other people i.m.o.
john
I agree there are lots of good people coming in and I count many as friends our drummer is from hungary. but I also see the other side. I work in construction and there are plenty of foreign builders ripping people off as there are good. most want to deal in cash, the Asian communities particularly do this and their health and safety is shocking.
business makes plenty because they will work for less and will work hard. A chap I know who’s english works for £250 a week and he has 3 kids and a wife but he won’t stay at home even though he could. wages are shocking when you consider the cost of living, bringing in cheap labor won’t help this but it will sure make some rich.
Also john good friend of mine works in a detention centre and I can assure you not all immigrants are coming here to work.
john
my ladies mate met the UKIP representatives at manchester house hotel after there rally and she said they were a bunch of pissed sexist knob heads so if your wondering I wouldn’t vote for them either.
Prox and Robbo
Sure it may be a pipe dream. And god knows I dont have faith in people as a whole. But surely this is a discussion that is warranted. Whats the alternative? We sit back do nothing while our club rots away, moan cos we have no new owners then moan when the new owners do things we dont agree with. There is only one way we can take our club back.
John
I dont remember if Collymore said he wanted full fan ownership or part. The figures are astronomical though for your average fan consortium. £200m in my view is a bridge too far.
We dont know what will happen in the future, nothing is gauranteed. But if we start out with genuine intentions in the first place then surely it will stand us in good stead. And should it happen, gone would be the days of overspending, we would spend within our means which really is the way it should be. That does not mean that we will be forever struggling, look at Atletico Bilbao as an example. Their entire squad is made out just from players from that region. In theory they should be at a big disadvantage every season, but the things that work for them in terms of crowd support and team togetherness means that they are comfortable each season, even flirting with European football on occasion.
Mark:
I recognise what you say about some immigrants, but I’d suggest that it’s a significant minority who are not here for good intentions, and you always have exceptions amongst any group – even Brits! 😉
Ree,
There are some VERY wealthy Villans out there, Mike Neville who’s consortium attempted to buy Villa at the same time as Lerner used to manage Ian Taylor when he was playing non-league and is a genuine bloke. King and others with financial clout should be able to organise at least a partial buy out. The only mistake Pat Matthews made all those years ago was to invite Herbert on board, but what a mistake.
Brand Value – Villa’s rating.
See http://www.themag.co.uk/the-mag-articles/newcastle-fall-behind-west-ham-everton-aston-villa-brand-value-assessment/
“The analysis of brand strength benchmarks risk, strength, longevity and future potential of the brand, relative to competitors.
“The financial factors taken into account are revenue mix and growth, plus football specific measurements such as squad value, club heritage, kickdex data, UEFA coefficient ranking and the average attendance, amongst others.”
£533m Bayern Munich
£457m Real Madrid
£440m Manchester United
£370m Barcelona
£304m Manchester City
£301m Arsenal
£299m Chelsea
£279m Liverpool
£195m Borussia Dortmund
£193m PSG
£186m Schalke
£148m Spurs
£147m Juventus
£140m AC Milan
£90m Inter Milan
£89m Ajax
£84m Galatasaray
£82m Hamburg
£75m Atletico Madrid
£72m Everton
£72m Napoli
£69m Bayer Leverkusen
£68m Aston Villa
£67m West Ham
£65m Lyon
£64m Roma
£61m Newcastle United
£61m Stuttgart
£59m Valencia
£56m Werder Bremen
£55m Sunderland
Also 40th Southampton £45m, 41st Stoke £45m, 42nd West Brom £44m, 50th Fulham £29m.
Ree
I agree very much with the tenor of your last post.
But do we do now … leave it and go to sleep (again)?
Ree,
I never suggested it was a pipe dream , I merely pointed to major obstacles to the plan and those obstacles wont be overcome with platitudes and rhetoric about just how claret &blue we bleed
Also, are we not having a discussion right now?
I have genuinely complimented you on the quality of your article but I disagree with some of the assertion s that you and others have made, so does that make me less ofa villan? Under the right regime I would invest in villa shares but not to be represented by media whores like collymore
Those figures show that if Lerner had a single brain cell he could have put AVFC on a solid footing, instead he gave it the Billy Big Bollox and now the club is suffering for hi stupidity.
Strange how the article refers to u as ‘even Aston Villa’ i don’t remember seeing NUFC blazing any trails of glory over the last 90 years or so.
Prox,
Stanley seems to have upset peeps with comments about the Falklands.
Steamer: i don’t remember seeing NUFC blazing any trails of glory over the last 90 years or so.
W-e-e-e-e-l-l they did puff close enough to give Man U a scare in the league over a couple of seasons nearly 20 years ago (twice finishing runner-up) … plus 3 times FA Cup winners in the ’50s … Fairs Cup winners (60s?).
To be fair their 6 FA Cup Final appearances since the War looks a tad better than our meagre 2 appearances.
Really steamer? And what little nugget of genius , did our future chairman have to offer on a subject he has no doubt studied in quite some detail?
John
A feasibility study could be done to see if a fan takeover is viable. It would answer a few how and what questions.
Prox,
Only read the headline about the controversy and afraid that was in the Daily Heil the paper that wants Jeremy Clarkson as PM.
john
its not the immigrants I was pointing out its our policies, Germany go for the cream and there country thrives because of it, we want cheap labour.
have we got any further along with the purchase?
Prox
I wasn’t saying that you’re less of villan, far from that. Disagreements are bound to happen but in essence we all want the same thing so we should focus on that and figure out ways to get there. If you don’t like Collymore fair enough, I just think its something he believes in and he’s best placed to promote the cause.
John
The next step I suppose is to reach out to fellow Villans and supporter groups and ascertain if people want the same thing and whether any actions have already been taken.