It perhaps wasn’t a “disastrous” day at Villa Park on Saturday, but it neither was it a good one. Awful is the word Steve Bruce used, I believe.
John Terry left with a broken metatarsal and seems to be out 8-10 weeks (which might be tad optimistic). Robert Snodgrass, with either cracked or broken ribs, came off early to obvious frustration. And an early goal from the Owls proved a bridge too far for Villa, whose unbeaten run came to an end, 1-2. And Samba’s late consolation is being seen by many as an indication of not very good things.
Now, as I’ve said, I’ve been traveling, so not as tuned in as I would like. AVTV (which will likely prompt an open letter from me) failed to deliver yet again, but I did catch some of the audio commentary, and then didn’t as we made our way about Boston with my daughter. Lovely place. She’s finishing up her senior year in university, and enjoying showing the town to the missus on her first visit.
Anyway, I digress. What all that means is that I’m going to have to go meta in my analysis, cobbling together bits and pieces to try and make some sort of coherent observation.
Was the loss the end of the world? No. You’re going to lose some games. However, it was very much a missed opportunity and a disappointment as the side looked to build momentum and cement themselves in the playoff spots. I’d said before the game that it could mark a turning point, and now we’ll see what sort of turning point it turns out to be.
Apart from being a disappointment and lost opportunity, the performance also seemed to indicate that Villa haven’t come as far as we might’ve hoped. We apparently still can’t use Hogan properly, which I can understand to a certain extent since he’s not been featuring regularly. It does, however, raise the question of why we’ve got him if we can’t find a way to get goals out of him. Either starting or coming on late, he’s just not making an impact. Playing him wide certainly wouldn’t seem to help.
While Villa’s depth has been touted as a strength in a long grind of a season, it’s starting to be tested. Adomah has obviously shone in Green’s absence, but now we’ll see exactly what Terry was or wasn’t bringing to the side. Bree, De Laet, Samba and Elphick are all possible replacements, but I’m not sure Elphick and Samba are going to fill anyone with confidence. Up to them to make their own cases. Jedinak might be the best option, but we’ll see if he can stay fit. If he can manage not to hurt himself again playing for Australia, he’ll get some valuable playing time in. Onomah has alternately flashed serious potential and the sort of form that’s seen him come to us versus staying at Spurs.
With Grealish returning, Snodgrass’s injury (which he wanted to play through) might be no big deal, but even if Snodgrass hasn’t been providing the goals or creative spark, he’s been doing a lot of work, which is what Grealish doesn’t do. I’ve no idea how serious Snodgrass’s condition is (cracked ribs is mainly a matter of pain), and we’ve got another break for players to heal during, but perhaps we’ll see how much that work means to the side if this is Grealish’s ticket back in. And, of course, with Kodjia out, we apparently don’t have another striker to fill his boots.
So there’s all that. The bigger problem seems to be one of consistency. Bruce has done the right thing in largely persisting with the side that has produced our best performances, but Villa are struggling to produce that kind of form on a regular basis. While folks correctly point out there’s a lot of football left to play, Villa are now 9 and 7 points off the top spots. Not insurmountable.
But you can go all the way down to QPR in 15th before you find a side more than five points below us. It’s tight, in other words, and we’re far from comfortable. Over the season we’ve averaged right about 1.6 points per game, putting us on pace for 75 or so. Last year, that would’ve seen us 7th. The year before, 6th. Newcastle and Brighton averaged 2.04 and 2.02, respectively, while Burnley and Middlesbrough averaged 2.02 and 1.93.
Cause for alarm? Well, you never really know until you’re looking back. But the elusive corner seems always a step out of reach.
So for now, we head into another international break, hope that players don’t get hurt, hope that players heal, and hope that we don’t come back with another stinker. Given that we’ve plenty of time on our hands, I’ll come back later in the week with something more concrete once I’ve digested the Wednesday game.
Over to you.
The Author
John Clark
John is co-owner of AVL, and has followed the Villa since the '70s. A journalist by trade, he is, by most accounts, a very nice person. You can follow me on Twitter @JClarkKohoutek. It's an astonishing experience. Or a complete waste of time.Comments 122
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JC
That’s a good assessment of the current state of play so far this season. Of course, what you, me, JL or anyone else thinks is irrelevant as Dr X is the man who ultimately decides our teams future. We merely chew the fat on all matters AVFC and enjoy the craic. I’ve often roared with laughter at some of the comments on here. Steamer comes to mind when we played WBA twice in a week and he said his workmate who was a WBA fan hadn’t been so excited since he married his sister. His way of calling him an inbred. So funny. One comment of many.
So it’s sad that JL has taken the hump. Hope Villa don’t also run the white flag up. I’m sure he’ll still read the site comments in cognito and maybe comment again when he recovers.
jl
dont take the hump we need one voice of reason
we agree/disagree but we have never crossed words,we each accept others views unlike some
take a breather and come fighting back ,more than you can say for a bruce led villa lol
JL, you’ve reached the same conclusion as I had/have in that you can talk reason on here but there is no real reason coming back.~
It seems like a mainly ‘I hate SB’ blog along with various players ………..
Whenever I post a (what I consider) reasoned message, like you do, there is virtually no response so I think why bother?
And the responses since our life threatening loss on Saturday are nothing more than expected.
JL – please keep in touch via the other method and if/when I am over in the UK, maybe we can meet up? Aston Villa Worldwide seems a pretty reasonable blog!
oldvilla
BTW – disappointed in you JC if you have hastened JL’s departure.
The blogs end is sight? …..
oldvilla
Cheers, Plug.
Non one’s asked anyone to leave, but people make their choices.
And indeed, we influence nothing in the grand scheme. Whether for or against Bruce, or any given player, our thoughts are merely banter, as you say. Dr. Xia is ultimately pulling the strings.
OV,
I don’t air laundry when people want to to talk offline. Some might like to, but you’ll only ever hear one side, and there is always more than one point of view.
OV, you talk about everyone bashing Bruce and when you think about it a lot of it is deserved. The latest being Snodgrass playing with broken ribs.
Over the years McLeish, Lambert, houllier, Garde, and Sherwood have been slagged. But Lerner gave them nothing but bottle caps to work with. Yeah some of the expensive players were bought by RDM but Bruce marginalized them. Spent big last winter and can’t place half of them in the team. He’s got talent, skill,and graft and he can’t do anything with them. I think Terry has been given free reign on the back four with no input from Bruce.
The previous managers got stick but in my mind didn’t deserve half of it. I blamed Lerner.
Now you have a chairman who thinks that lots of money spells success but guess what Sherlock it doesn’t. Cryptic tweets, sad emoji faces, and unattainable goals from him don’t help regardless of who manages the team. The team sits where they are in the league due to an excess of talent not because they play as a cohesive team. Only a couple of games this season has stirred our soul. You know how a good stew needs a few days to be really good? Well Villa are only on the second day.
JL
Have a break & come back soon refreshed mate.
Take care of yourself
JC
Yes that about sums it up.
Who knows who will rise to the occasion.
Hopefully the team
OV
Calm down son, you’re making waves again
Ian
Thanks for putting it into words of more than one syllable, & making sense.
I think I’m reverting back to grunts with inflections.
JC
Can’t add anything to your accurate summary of the match and situation at Villa. You’re a good writer.
JL/OV
Cheer up, maties.
IanG-I think I’m reverting back to grunts with inflections. Heehee. I can just imagine.
Cheers, Iana.
And indeed, excellent summary from Ian. If he doesn’t get eaten by a bear, we’ll look for another leader soon. Ian?
ian
good post around 8,and all them managers you mentioned bar mcleish we had some great performances even lambert managed it beating pool with benteke on fire,bruce has had over 50 games in lower league yet we still have premier ship wage bill for players and management and not one decent show even last week v depleted preston we sat back further and further instead of going on and scoring more goals
Is it time for SB to try something different? For 1 game at least? After the previous 2 international breaks Villa put in a shockingly inept performance at home to Brentford and a not much better one at Wolves.
To an average fan like me, it seemed that either the players were knackered after their international efforts or there was insufficient time to prepare for the forthcoming match. Maybe a bit of both.
So against QPR perhaps SB should try as many as 5 or 6 changes from his usual guys and stand down those who have been away. Pick a team from those still around the training ground and thoroughly prepare them for what we will be up against at Loftus Road. What do you reckon guys?
In his time at Blackpool, Holloway called Villa a half arsed team. Let’s shove those words where the sun don’t shine on Ollie.
Plug
Agree 100%. It’ll be nice to humble Holloway. There’s no point in playing fatigued or unmotivated players and Bruce needs to do something Holloway doesn’t expect. He’ll need to be onto it now. He needs to get that team together ASAP so the players can ingest what’s expected both as individuals and what is expected of them as a team.
My thoughts exactly Plug. I don’t like players trotting off 1/2 way around the world every month. Knackered and hurt is an understatement and Villa have been on the receiving end of injuries more than a few times. Like a rental car, they get the shit kicked out of them.
In hockey here the league takes precedence over international play. Mind you money is a big part of that. No olympics this year for hockey players it’s business as usual.
Oops, Bruce just emailed his play book to QPR by mistake. Holloway knows how to get under someone’s skin. He’s good at it and we bite every time.
Oh dear…. what has happened. I cannot believe that my old mate JL, has decided to leave the site. Who am I going to find to have banter and exchanges with now.
When I first joined this site, that was what was great about it, the total diversification of opinion, from the Steamers on the one hand, through to the JC/JL’s and the band of which I was one at one time ” The happy clappers”.
Perhaps the strains of trying to remain positive, without the great wit of Gary, has become too much. I almost feel that we seemed to have lost our humour here of late.
It is a sad that we cannot continue with diverse opinions, and enjoy the interaction between us, which means we are entitled to criticise Bruce where we feel necessary. It does not make us Bruce haters, which I object to. No-one hates the man, but from time to time we question his decisions. That is democracy…..!!
OK Paul—what has 36 teeth and an IQ of 136? The front row at St. Andrews.
🙂
When Craig Gardner moved from Villa to Blues the average IQ on both teams went up 10%
Hey Paul
It’s a cycle that every group of people go through. You get tired of it and shut off. I was gone for almost a year for whatever reason and am now happy to be back. I miss the repartee from a few years back but enjoy the style of the blog now. I hope some of the old posters show up again.
Plug
It’s a nice dream, but unfortunately doomed because it makes sense.
But we’ve got to dream… mind you some of us from the nether parts of Tilton Rd live in one & rarely seem to wake up.
PP
Yeah taking things too seriously, bugger isn’t it.
Well I’m not taking that seriously either
Ian
Yes I couldn’t type fast enough to keep up, which was why I kept quiet.
Hope they all come back.
Also the way to change something is to take part & retain a sense of humour, or failing that retain a sense of humour.
Yes life has a habit of screwing up the best laid plans of mice & men.
Talking of footie, Plug’s observation that we always tend to be ponderous & lose after an international break [it’s becoming the football break from internationals] is a good point & changing things round would create more healthy competition.
PP
Sometimes we have to let go & deal with life.
But that can become another one.
I hope JL & all drop in now & then to let us know they’re still in the land of the living, mind you there’s always a drop off during the int break [Except for Mark – have fun mate wherever you are & see you soon we hope]
The Jedi is travelling the furthest & it tends to slow him down, & he’s playing in Honduras then Australia next Wednesday, so he’s not going to be fit to play IMO.
Codger isn’t really ready to play, at least I hope he doesn’t, but he’s only got one game to survive.
Snoddy has cracked ribs.
Wales are in France & Germany, so not so bad.
The England senior team are at home.
Ireland is only going to Denmark on Saturday & at home next week.
Elmo is in the Ivory coast for one game only so barring injury he should be ok.
The viking is going to Iceland & then Qatar but it should be good for him as he hasn’t been playing much.
The problem will be the U 20’s & the U 19s with it potentially affecting Davis & O’Hare who are on standby, & Clark.
Still we have plenty of good youngsters left if called upon.
I enjoyed your IQ joke Ian, but I’m not sure who the jokes on. We sent them Ridgewell and got Mcleish, then we send them Gardner and we get Bruce, so not sure who’s IQ improved in those rounds to be honest.
just seen this on another site in 20 twenty games under bruce in which villa have fallen behind
1 win
3 draws
16 defeats
6 points from when we are behind
and the win came in bruce first match v blackburn
JG
That sounds about right.
Not even interested in what his sound bytes were about it, probably quack quack in a Geordie accent.
Amazing Penalty
Clive shared this. If ya haven’t seen it, it’s a beauty.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/41728826
Total quality, Iana.
JG,
If anyone was questioning Bruce’s ability to change a match….
IanG,
I don’t know the politics, but Jedi really needs to call time on the international career. Not like Australia’s winning anything, and he needs to be fit for the club that’s paying him.
Love the spirit, but…
And Kodjia should not be playing (if it’s even on the cards).
Paul,
There’s always room for diverse opinions… I know I like hearing all thoughts, and never think to enforce any particular view.
(Reminder: anyone can submit a leader)
Thinking we could do better than Bruce isn’t “anti-Villa”….it’s just an opinion that maybe the club we love is better served going another direction. That’s “pro-Villa”.
So, just a matter of perspective.
Me, I like the guy. I still just haven’t figured out if he actually knows what to do with us.
JC
I think this will be his last campaign, or it will get ridiculous.
The travelling is a killer along with the aggravated injuries, but it will be hard for him to say no I think.
But it’s the club that pays him as you say.
lana
Nice one that.
The crowd or management yelling at him is funny, they don’t seem to make much noise there.
Clive
No wonder you live there [& the weather].
With Jedinak being 33 and bothered by injury that doesn’t seem to heal quickly, I’m guessing this will be his last year.
I’m with you John regarding all the extra curricular activity.
I think there’s too many international fixtures. Since the clubs pay the salaries, they should have more say. I know the players want to play for their countries, but how often is too much?
Last Sunday, The Barbarians (rugby) played the NZ All Blacks at Twickenham. God Save the Queen and God Defend NZ were sung before the match in front of 70000 rugby fans. But the Baabaas had no Brits nor Irish playing for them. Why? Because their clubs wouldn’t let them go. Eddie Jones, the England coach, didn’t want his players playing lest they get hurt. Scots, Welsh nor Irish played, either, mainly because club comes first.
JC,
I think most of us enjoy diverse opinion, or there would be nothing to write about here.
Interesting when you look at what happened to all the united players that served with Bruce, and went on to try management, none really ever made it.
Ferguson, Ince, Keane, all had their time. Ince probably the most successful out of those, and Giggs still awaiting his chance again at United.
Bruce to me, was the brawn of the centre back partnership with Pallister, which is why he probably looks more like an ex-boxer, than an ex-footballer. Looks can be deceptive, and he has probably had the best managerial career of all of them.
He comes across as very genuine, but I think he struggles under the pressures and demands of Tony Xia.
Trinity,
Interesting, that. I defo think the clubs should be able to have a say, and if players are disappointed, then it’s an internal matter. You could always make it the case that if they come back injured, then they don’t get paid until they start playing again.
However, I don’t expect anything to change.
Paul,
Xia has definitely put the pressure on. On the one hand, we know goals, and perhaps even very aggressive ones, are necessary to make things happen. On the other, if they’re too ambitious and not rooted in reality, they can do the opposite.
I know Xia wanted as sure a thing as possible, hence the experienced Bruce. However, as many have noted, other teams have undergone massive turnover with new managers and ended up coming together quite nicely.
Dunno how Wolves will fare over the season, but so far they hardly look a side that’s behind us on the rebuilding curve.
JG
Interesting stats those about SB when conceding first. Reveals a lack of tactical nous to me as much as anything and confirms why so many fans have doubts about him.
Ian
I’m guessing Jedi has a clause in his contract freeing him for international duty if selected. Or it may be FA rules. But that shouldn’t stop clubs inserting clauses in contracts that deduct significant salary if injury on international duty deprives a club of a player. Some clubs may already do this as certain players have called time on their country. In Jedi’s case, he’s probably quite happy to be ferried around the globe at someone elses expense. This is one for the boardroom.
PP
I’m not aware of any ex Ferguson players becoming stand out managers. In fact most have bombed. Maybe Strachan and Hughes have done best without lighting any fires. Gary Neville and Olle Gunnar Solskjaer got the boot after a few months. In the latter’s case he failed to prevent Cardiff from relegation. Bryan Robson was not a successful manager and I would put SB in the same bracket due to relegations on his CV. Let’s not forget ‘Eck who was under Ferguson at Aberdeen I believe. Another one with relegations on his CV.
Plug
I think the clubs rely on insurance to offset the wages cost with injury.
Not that it can fully offset the effect of losing a critical player.
Plug
Hughes has done well at Stoke, considering the financial constraints.
But then he was an intelligent player.
Yes,
I had forgotten about Hughes, comes with age…….!!
I did like Hughes, and was really peed off, when he walked out, because Fulham wouldn’t let him talk to Villa, and then Lerner, because he was a friend of Al Fayed. turned his back on him, and if he had come, Villa’s story may have been very different.
Paul, struggling under Xia could just be the understatement of the year. He’s had 4 promotions, how long did they take?
Being a good manager must have something to do with personality. Not necessarily the same personality, but one that resonates with the squad at hand. Some just don’t have that nous.
I’ve wondered if a crossover from another sport would work in an associate ro le. Ie: hockey for the way they set up plays or American football as every play is a tactical decision. I would think a sports minded professional would be able to adjust their thinking without losing their talent for winning.
Ian,
Can’t say I know what goes on behind the scenes as far as sports science, nutrition, recovery, all the rest, but one of the things I would’ve thought Lerner might bring was some of that back-end support from American football. The players take such a beating, but by and large are ready to go the next week. Basically relates to why Villa have seemed to lack the fitness of other clubs. Can’t say whether our injury rate for things like hamstrings, etc., are any higher than the norm.
Likewise, analysis, scouting, etc. I know association football is nowhere near as “scripted” as most of the dominant North American sports, but as you point out, things like hockey and basketball, where there’s both fluidity and patterns of play…a person could at least be looking there for ideas. Like beating a full-court press, playing intense half-court defense, defensemen pinching up, having ideas where they want to go on the breakaway.
Ian/JL
I’ve sometimes wondered if a club like Villa couldn’t learn something from a team like the All Blacks. Like you say, there’s got to be some crossover there. Whatever the case, sticking with the same old same old probably won’t work anymore. Sure, there are universal things/principles that never change but time changes many things and no one can stop time.
Trinity…
Indeed, no one can stop time. And while football is a ‘simple’ game compared to many others, it’s all these other things that are changing around it.
Not sure how much I buy into stats in football overall—though if you were evaluating players (and how many times can you really watch them in person if it’s for scouting?), it would be useful to know how many passes were completed under pressure, for example, and then going forward under pressure, vs. the backward and sideways stuff at the back. And you’d want to know how much time Hourihane spends defending when Whelan is in the side versus Jedinak, for example.
All backroom staff doing tons of tedious breakdowns…not a job I’d want, I don’t think.
You get a good sense of what’s happening when watching games, but would be interesting to compare these sorts of things in a Norwich win versus a Preston win, a Wolves loss versus a Wednesday loss.
The Whitecaps have been implementing set pieces on the move. During the game certain situations arise resulting in a specific plan to attack.
Ian,
yeah, that seems totally reasonable. Like taking a quick kick at 35-40 yards out…How many times does that just get knocked sideways instead of looking for someone who’s quietly slipped back onside?
Think Aaron Rodgers going long every time he gets a defense to jump offside. No thought, that’s the plan.
I wasn’t sure if teams do that or not but decided to mention it. It made sense to me.
Ian
Remi Garde has got a job after AVFC a 3 year contract!
Montreal Impact.
Do you know them?
Yes I do. Didier drogba played for them for 2 years.
They were just out of the playoffs this year. MLS is quite competitive.
Interesting that professional rugby union now has serious problems with injuries, because of the changes that have occurred in the game with much bigger and heavier players, and tackling is done at a much higher body level. It is so serious, that they are looking at how the rules can be amended to help reduce drastically, the number of injuries.
I do find that our North American friends find it hard to really understand the game of soccer, which is not based on brawn, speed, or pre-meditated tactical team moves. It is about the skills of individuals honed over many years from a young age to then be blended with others to form a team of players, whose skills when matched in the right combination, are able to defend , Attack and distribute the ball around until they succeed in scoring a goal.
This season, Manchester City have demonstrated this admirably, but it did not happen overnight. Not only do you have to look at the development of the team to truly assess. You need to look at the players history, which will have started at 6/7 years old, through very junior sides, then on to academies. Their skills are honed over many years, eventually reaching their peak in their early twenties.
You just cannot take a young fit college student and expect to make a top professional footballer out of him. He may become a reasonable player, with a reasonable understanding of the game, but he will never have the skills of a Messi or a Ronaldo, but if you watch any game today, you will see players with great ball skills, and the ability to beat a man. This has been developed from childhood.
PP
but if you watch any game today, you will see players with great ball skills, and the ability to beat a man.
Correct indeed. Just seems like Villa don’t have too many of those types. Do we have any? Oh, for a couple of flying wingers who can take out a defender on either side and provide a perfect cross.
PP
You’re right about professional rugby. The game has got faster, even though, the players are bigger and heavier. Concussion issues seem to be the biggest problem.
As for those football skills, gotta get em (as you say) at a young age. Those tactical touch ball and awareness skills are difficult to develop later.
Best wishes to our Irish villans on their upcoming playoffs. Here’s hoping both O’Neill’s can get their teams to Russia.
Plug
“Just seems like Villa don’t have too many of those types.”
Big reason why many are happy to give O’Hare and Grealish a go. They might lack in some ways, but they can beat players.
The skills part, definitely. The ball has to be something you control without thinking, only happens from childhood.
Don’t follow rugby, had no idea they were facing those issues.
Trinity
Rugby is a sport for gentleman.
We were supposed to grin & bear it with a stiff upper lip when we were knocked out, suffered concussion or other injuries, & if it wasn’t too severe we just went back on the field, especially after dislocations.
If & when we came round & it hadn’t been total, we also went back on the field, as long as we weren’t cross eyed.
Some people suffer from this later in life & others don’t, so there must be more to the story than currently focused on.
This also relates to heading the ball, & just ignoring it doesn’t work any better than an over focus on what is currently in vogue for those who need to head a ball to get some sense in them.
Saying that, knowledge learned as we progress should obviously be applied with common sense, but not with the usual reasoning of elf & safety.
I sometimes wonder how the human race has survived at all with so many dangerous things like funny pointed balls [or was it better when we kicked [hopefully not headed]goat’s heads?], must be a surfeit of thinking.
IanG,
Maybe it has something to do with the thickness of the skull, as most players over the years did not suffer, but there were several that did, and that was with leather caseballs and laces. Often, it was the laces that hurt the most. Heading skills also very much depend on the correct use of the forehead, which few players seem to use these days. I always remember Bertie Auld playing for the “Blue Noses”, and he could head a ball into the net with the ferocity that most players had in their foot. John Terry reminds of our old Villa players with his heading ability, something that seemed to come naturally in the good old days….
Paul, you make it sound like sport in North America is something anybody can pick up in an afternoon. Just like soccer, ice hockey, American football, baseball and basketball start at a young age. There are organized leagues for 5 year olds in ice hockey. By the time an American footballer is a pro he’s played for 15 years already.
Your thinking in a supremely honed player melding with other supremely honed players makes it sound like a pick up game after church. Every professional sport spends plenty of time scouting and preparing for games. My thought was prepared tactics for a given circumstance or opportunity on the field. Like JC said earlier an audible. A calling out of a coded message to set a play in motion.
Just about everyone complains about the keeper just lumping the ball up field basically a free for all. Same goes for corner kicks. It’s just kicked into the pack with a spin on the ball hoping it finds a team mates head. Surely this set piece could be worked into something more successful.
Thick skulls, cross eyed, blue noses—nuff said
There are some fairly brawny soccer players too. Micah Richards wouldn’t look out of place on an American football team. Richard Dunne was 215 pounds.
IanG/PP
Yeah, heading the ball, especially with poor technique and with the wrong part of the head certainly rattles the brain a bit. In football the damage is accumulative over a period of years.
I got knocked out playing rugby. Like IanG says, we just carried on without complaining. Even international matches were only allowed three subs for whatever reason, even injuries. Remember that? That had to change otherwise really hurt players just played on somehow.
Rugby players today are stronger, fitter, bigger and faster than ever. They’re also more skilled and hit harder in contact. The collision area is where most injuries occur.
As hard as rugby is, I notice the All Blacks play three internationals this coming week. They’ve got France on Saturday, a French selection (yummy) on Tuesday and then Scotland the next Saturday. It’ll be a similar schedule for the other touring teams. The likes of Gabby might pull a hammy just thinking about it. Lots of rugby players, especially wingers have hamstring problems but seem to get over them.
Hurting ourselves in the name of sport seems a luxury exclusive to humans…
Hello folks, thought I’d pop in and say hello and put my two penneth worth in, hope your all well
I like the way Brentford view stats, they use them to find the most effective way to score goals, what positions goals come from and then drill their team accordingly. The owner is an ex gambler and used his own software to analyse, so more on the basis of put the ball and player here enough times and he will score. Whats apparent by their play is lumping the ball up field doesn’t create that many cnances although they also value entertainment. Pepe uses a formula regardless of formation that is a sequence of passes from the back to front (usually 12-15) ending in a shot/chance and it seems fairly accurate although it probably requires a high degree of skill/intelligence to perfect hence it doesn’t get copied much.
Bruce on the other hand likes to lump it requiring a physical element, I think Bruce has a very narrow band of players that are physical enough to make that work for him but a much larger bunch that could play a passing game potentially and now after weeks of using the same few he will have to dip into the unknown again.
Ian
True. The best rugby players start at an early age. That’s when they learn to run the best lines. In a game like ice hockey, the better players would be excellent skaters at a young age before learning how to dribble I imagine?
Good morning, Mark. Welcome back.
I hope Steve Bruce isn’t stuck in a time warp regarding his style of play. I think he underestimates his own players’ intelligence. They could do a lot more on and with the ball.
Ian
I thought Micah Richards looked bigger when he was at Man City.
Mark who? 🙂
That’s what I’ve been on about. How successful are Brent ford doing this?
Trinity, dribbling is stick handling.
I always thought dribbling was a skill honed over the years by the fans at St Andrews
Go to you tube and go to NHL’s best dangles. Hope you find it. Skill doesn’t just lie at the feet of Messi, Ronaldo, and Kane
Ian
They only dribble when they think about the chicks at the next family reunion.
What-o Mark
At least they’ve worked out where Brentford is, which is more than I have.
Yes if they play on the floor more the use of the air should be more useful as it would be connected.
Trinity
bruce definitely underestimates the intelligence of the players, I mean he has to seem more than them he’s the manager.
Don’t forget he worked at BCFC. IanG
Ian- any skill is supposed to take 10,000 repetitions to sink in by the time johnsons 50 his goal kicks will be like guided missiles
Hello IanG get a sat nav or cross Brentford off your bucket list
Whats the consensus on our chances then lads? I can’t say I am overwhelmed with October, at PNE we looked like a competent side whether they had a defence or not very pleasing then we go to pieces again. We are 5 goals scored 5 conceded in 5 games 7 points out of 15 so a bit off auto pace but at least we are still in the top 6.
Next up QPR and our old friend Hollaway who’s up for manager of the month two away draws and beat Wolves and Sheff utd at home so no pushovers
I’ve had a soft spot for QPR for a while.
Holloway is one of the great shit disturbers. A quality not too many managers have. Mourino’s good in the way he dismisses his opposition.
How about joey Barton as a manager. 🙂
Mark, there seems to be a spark missing. Every now and then it comes alive. No real killer instinct.and I don’t think Bruce is the guy to instil one. I guessing they will make the playoffs
Good to see you back Mark King.
Without Terry, Villa will struggle now until a new defensive unit settles in, and we could be lucky to stay where we are. We are more likely to drop a couple of places at least, unless Bruce changes his tactics .
Concerned that he already sees Bree, Lansbury and Elphick as surplus. Does not give them confidence, if he suddenly needs them.
Ian,
I take on board what you are saying, but I do not think that you have fully taken on board my statement.
One of the main reasons that American owners have not succeeded in the UK, is because they do not understand how teams evolve, and how long it takes to build them.
The only real successful owners have been the Glazers, because they put their faith in Ferguson, and let him build the club from top to bottom.
Maybe we should get an American coach to take on the villa and improve their tactics, but I feel that the American way would be on our ability to carry the ball, once a number had been called.
As for ice hockey, and similar sports, unfortunately we have not replaced the yellow card with the sin bin, which could improve the game..
I see some of the skills in hockey, and yes, to produce a great player takes time, basketball I enjoy and used to love watching the Harlem globe trotters. Baseball is a fun game to me which is no more than rounders played at a professional level.
NFL and the such does just not appeal, would rather watch Aussie rules football, or Gaelic football.
Holloway has been so successful as a manager, it is a surprise that he has never managed the inbreds down the road, especially with his level of knowledge.
I am sure that Bruce will catch a cold there, and perhaps we need Joey, now that Terry is out for a while, or even Deeney, another ugly player that gets in the face of the opposition.
QPR will be wanting to bounce back after their 4-0 thrashing by Nottingham Forest on Sunday. As Sir Ed Hillary always said, Nothing ventured nothing gained. Sir Ed had a “killer instinct.” He would have made a great motivational speaker for Villa.
Paul, I agree with your thoughts on American owner’s. No sport in North America has the promotion relegation system so loss of revenue isn’t affected. The NFL is a licence to print money. Being in the Prem is their goal and the sooner the better because of the money. Growing a team is foreign to them. Universities provide players in the NFL through a draft. Usually the poorer teams get to draft first. NHL have a lottery and a draft from junior hockey teams and some university programs. None have an academy to develop their own players although the NHL own minor league teams similar to the championship in talent. A place to groom prospects.
Without the prospect of relegation a different system has evolved. There are salary caps to contend with which force teams to aim for a specific season to win the leagues trophy. To amass the best players before their salaries take the team beyond the cap. So working towards a solid team like football in England will never happen.in North America. American owners and also Chinese owners have trouble with this IMO.
In hockey, there is also a minimum salary cap where teams aren’t allowed to drop below a certain dollar figure for salaries. This is to keep all teams relatively competitive. With all these rules in place league cups aren’t usually won two years in a row by the same team.
PP- Pretty much how I see it, we are thin on the ground to play Bruces way effectively . I was hoping we could dispense with the DM role as wheelan is a passenger in to many games, would rather Lyden get a go there in the current set up but I suspect Bruce will go more defensive with a potentially weaker back line if Jedinak survives the internationals intact.
Sadly in such a crucial season we have gambled on his first 11 playing the majority of games and neglected the remainder of the squad and what they could bring played differently, its a case for me of bringing the wrong manager in for the starting squad we had regardless of his promotions, Both teams he inherited in Hull and Brum were largely British based players when he took over, a good base for his style.
We now have virtually a Steve Bruce created 1st 11 only, and I am not surprised he has said he is a few seasons away from the team he wants. Still he now has Grealish back maybe he will resurrect the idea of building around him as the link or will he play him out left and Onamah/ohare in the middle? I can see many ways to play this team none of them the Bruce way unfortunately.
We currently have the Bruce way the Kmac way and the Villa engine way going on at Villa I just hope we find the way way at this point.
You’re right Mark, he hasn’t rotated players in. It’s tough playing what you think is your best 11 and keeping everyone happy. Especially when you have some high priced talent. He wins enough to keep his spot. Having said that I would hate Villa doing a Gary Rowett so maybe we should stick to his plan.
Ian,
Villa will not do a Gary Rowett. Xia will sack him if he fails….
We should have got it right before di Matteo.
Mark
Bruce is fortunate enough to have plenty of capable players at his disposal if only he has the gumption to use that to his and Villa’s advantage. There really is no excuse for failure, except for misapplication of the resources available. You’re right. Let’s hope he has both the gumption and flexibility think outside the spud sack.
Met a Brentford fan last night and we got talking about our youth teams, He said they don’t really have an U23’s etc or play in a league but the the team is basically all under 23 and they have to be ready to be called on for the first team. He reeled off a list of teams they had played and mostly beaten recently including Man City XI Chelsea XI Benfica inter and AC Milan sides, seems like a good way of getting some competitive games? He said he had been used to them playing Hoof ball all his life but now they are like Barcelona in comparison.
https://www.brentfordfc.com/fixtures/brentford-b-fixtures/
Interesting MK,
Just been watching Football Focus, which raised some interesting points of view for me.
The first one was to see that Alex McCleish is being seriously considered for the Scotland job, and lies second in the betting behind Northern Ireland’s Michael O’neill. Did Aston Villa make a crucial mistake when they sacked him after one season. He managed to keep them up, without spending any real money. Alex Ferguson, who recommended him, did not do well at United to start with, and like McCleish just ground out results, in what is a results driven business.
The second was watching the piece on Graham Potter, a young English manager , who has taken his club to the top Group J in the Europa league, and won three promotions with them, since his appointment in 2010. Unfortunately, it may take more than Villa to tempt him to manage back in the UK.
Thirdly, would Martin O’neill now be a prime candidate to move Villa back to the heights, if Bruce fails to come up to scratch. He could be very different with Xia’s backing.
Yes, good to see you back Mark.
I agree that Bruce is probably not the ideal manager to get the best out of some of or skilful players and that is a shame.
Bruce’s way of playing can still however still bring us success this season and if we were to change him for someone else, the probability is that we would end up with someone worse. They may play more expansive football but that may not bring the results and that is the ‘only’ thing that matters this season.
It does seem perverse to criticise him for playing a settled side. At the start of the season the main criticism (including from you I believe) was that he didn’t have a settled team or formation.
I distinctly remember that when we started winning, a lot of the credit was given to us finally having a settled team.
It’s a long season and there ‘will’ be injuries. I’d much prefer us to have a settled team and formation and then make changes when we need to, rather than be continually chopping and changing throughout the season.
It will be interesting to see SB’s team selection for the QPR game. Will he stick with his settled team (exception being JT) or will he make changes due to the absence of players on international duty? I think he should make 5 or 6 changes.
Some of the players away on duty haven’t played much so some may argue the likes of Whelan, Hourihane and Hogan should be in the starting line up. My thoughts are that they’ve missed almost all of the 2 weeks on the Villa training ground so the chances of them being ready for QPR is questionable. Always assuming SB thinks about the opposition players and plans accordingly.
I’d go 1 up front at Loftus Road and play 5 in the middle. I’d also have 5 or 6 of Kevin Mac’s kids in the starting line up for this 1 game and see how they go. We need some legs and pace.
Plug-“I’d go 1 up front at Loftus Road and play 5 in the middle. I’d also have 5 or 6 of Kevin Mac’s kids in the starting line up for this 1 game and see how they go. We need some legs and pace.”
Excellent idea. After two weeks break and a history of shockers after international breaks, this is worth a go. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
Thanks Robbo, I’m not suggesting we sack Bruce just pointing out that the team he eventually produced (with a bit of luck) to play his way is thin on the ground. Strangely players that he at first looked past are now his saviours as in Davis and Adomah so I am amazed he is so reluctant to ring the changes. He has talked a couple of times now how he should of freshened things up after the fact, I don’t blame him for playing what he see’s as his best team I am just a little saddened that it also shows his limits.
As for we could get someone worse if he did go ? we could also get someone better, Bruce himself took Brum up after arriving in Oct/nov taking over from Francis. It would take someone that can see potential without having to play 10+matches first and the ability to use the full squad we do have a strong squad we just don’t use it to its potential as Bruce only plays one way.
I wish Bruce had a squad better suited to him so we can get promoted, I hope he finds away.
I heard on the grapevine from Villa Park That they called a meeting to discuss why we are so poor after internationals lets hope they find a solution. Also JT is not alone in Dubai all those not on international duty and some who have already played like Thor are out there, Snodgrass is still at Villa though which I find strange as he could do with some sun and Vit D to heal his ribs.
heres our next set of games till Crimbo not an easy run
https://7500toholte.sbnation.com/2017/11/11/16635454/bringing-in-or-ringing-in-the-new-year-a-preview-of-aston-villas-remaining-matches-in-2017
northern ireland out robbed by penalty in home match
JG,
Very sad, but that is life in football. They did everything apart from score.
Let’s hope the republic can do better on Tuesday.
MK,
I agree. No-one is saying Bruce should be sacked, but he knows that he has to up his game to keep his job. Recent results are just not good enough. He also worked under Fergie, where results were the be all and end all, at the end of the day. As he says in his autobiography, often the 1-0 scrappy victory which was hard fought was more important than giving someone a 6-0 drubbing.
James Gill
Shame about NI.
My country NZ just had a 0-0 match against Peru. The next leg is in Lima. Peru should win that one.
What a tight league the Championship is.
Welcome back Mark, nice to see you posting again.
SB seems to be reluctantly including players beyond his favorites but without playing to their strengths. If he would only develop a plan B using them, we could probably surprise a few teams or even come back after falling behind. All the well organised teams have taken points off us as they know exactly how we will be setup and how to deal with it.
pp
it would be nice to see a few 6-0 drubbings instead of holding on for dear life
JG
Absolutely.
Trinity,
The New Zealand keeper plays for the Vancouver Whitecaps. He pushed out their #1 in September.
Sweden knocked Italy out, the the first time since 1958 they haven’t qualified.
Shame about NI JG, so near.
Let’s hope now Italy’s out Ireland will make it, the people would love that.
As far as the match is concerned I agree with Plug that with that pitch we need a 5 man midfield to squash them into leaving gaps, it’s very small & their normal play would not work so well.
Mark – sounds like the break was good?
Ian
I better get a Whitecaps cap then. Do the white-caps refer to the mountains around Vancouver?
Funny to see the Itais go out.
Ian
Stefan Marinovich. Well, I learnt two things, who the NZ keeper plays for and the white-caps refers to the mountains. I asked because being ex Pussers I was thinking of ocean white-caps.
IanG
I agree with Plug too. Squash those Queen Butt Rangers.
Trinity
Yes squash them ifs & butts!
IanG
Queen’s Butt Rangers sounds a bit naughty. Reminds me of Dick Emery…The Queen’s Own Regiment. Remember that one?
Hello IanG- Yes mate very refreshing break things were getting a tad daft 🙂 I think other than the Preston game where we looked professional for the first time in years I feel we will stumble on through the season and end up in the top 6 hopefully, top Two looks a mile away at present with teams getting their acts together all around us, my real worry is more injurys and the lack of like for like replacements and the reinvention that would bring.
Question is will we buy in Jan and can we sell and who will we sell? worth noting that after 16 games we are 5 points better off than last season thats a win and two draws better.
QPR have a better home record than us and have beaten a lot of the top teams there but we have a good record against them, we will definitely park the bus and that would probably be a good idea.
Mark
Agree-as long as it’s an attack-minded bus with big guns.
It will be a seriously hard place to get a result, though.
Well interestingly, Ross Mccshandy has scored again! What is that 5 goals that he’s now scored since going to , 1, an easier league, 2, a better team, 3,abetter manager, 4, much much warmer environment.
rogermuffin
How are you? Aye. RM will be getting a tan soon.
Awesome free kick against Wellington Pheonix.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPqEsSAXucM
Ignore my previous comment. It didn’t really make sense. He it it corrected.
Well interestingly, Ross Mccshandy has scored again! What is that 5 goals that he’s now scored since going to , 1, an easier league, or 2, a better team, or 3,abetter manager, or 4, much much warmer environment. .
Or maybe it’s just one of those things.
Oh well. As long as we go up. Incidentally I am on a Cisco course this week, (for the it bods out there) and there’s a few guys down from Aberdeen for the course as well, here in brum. They’re saying we r going to buy their keeper Joe Lewis in January for 2 mill.
Hi iana, yeah mate cool.
The little Kids r getting older, and works actively encouraging me to on courses. So all good.
Hope eire get the right result tonight.
Rogermuffin
With FFP being tight for us, I can’t see even spud wasting £2m on a Scottish keeper. Wishful thinking by your MacColleagues methinks.
Mark,
after 16 games we are 5 points better off than last season thats a win and two draws better.
Yes. But what will Dr X be thinking? He’s alredy stated that we’re 6 points behind where he wants us to be after 16 games. Chances are…. that points deficit will be higher after QPR. How do Lifers think Dr X will react and when? Will he listen to board members and back SB until the end of the season? Will the board members back SB until then? The next few weeks are going to be interesting.
Plug- I put that up as a comparison to what went on last season up to crimbo which was pretty poor overall yet we only have five points more at this point, I am not to convinced we will better there points form now until Xmas either as it was pretty good, we need to beat a few top sides to threaten those top spots.
Mitchell clark drawing interesting and out of contract in the summer. We need to sign him up asap, in fact he needs to replace Terry?
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/mitch-clarks-rise-aston-villas-13895195
Trinity
Yes I remember that, unfortunately reminded me of my age too.
Changing managers when the team is sniffing around the top 6 or in the top 6 regardless of expected point total would be foolish. Birmingham proved that. Doing so would be slagging the team as well as the manager leaving a dispirited squad and producing another manager who would have to fall on his sword.
IanG
Age is just a concept. One of the worst concepts I can think of.
IanG
“Yes I remember that, unfortunately reminded me of my age too.”
Your memory is pretty good for an old codger.
Trinity- conceptual old codger?
Thanks E
perfect example that old style managers are finished tonight ,ireland out classed,out thought and not saying anything about or non tactics like stating murphy up front from start not sending 2 men out to deal with short corners ,losing plot at half time putting mcgeady on ,taking clark of it was like watching bruce
New post up from Ian.