The following is the first part of an article written around 1905 to 1907 by Howard Spencer, who was the Villa captain between 1902 and 1907, in-between John Devey and Joe Bache. Spencer also captained England on a few occasions. He became a director on the Villa board in 1909, where he remained until 1936.

Spencer was widely known as the ‘Prince of Full-backs’ and those who saw him play as a teenager in a youth representative match in 1893 realised that he was destined to become a great player. At the start of his career he found an able partner in Jim Welford, while later his association with Albert Evans  and then Freddie Miles  constitu­ted interesting chapters in the history of Aston Villa.

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All rights reserved: No copying nor distribution without the consent of John Lerwill.

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This is one of a series of summer articles from the archives that I have obtained with the object of writing a book on the Villa. Those articles I’m publishing here will not be included ‘verbatim’ in my book, but I thought it may be worthwhile to publish some of them on Aston Villa Life as an insight into the thinking back then – of 100 years ago and more.

These articles are published ‘as is’ with only a small attempt on my part at being helpful by the insertion of a comment or two.

Doubtless, the reader will find some of the language quite archaic, but I nevertheless hope that you persevere through the article and extract a good idea from it and grasp how evolutionary all the thinking was in those days. And also how much thought was expended on how to improve the game.

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METHODS OF PLAY IN FOOTBALL,

BY HOWARD SPENCER

“Teams who do too much passing almost invariably rank as bad shots.“

It would ill become me to sound the praises of Aston Villa too loudly. I hope I am a modest man; I have always tried to keep my own individuality in the background, and I am sure that any­thing I shall say in [this] article will be said concerning Aston Villa team as one homogeneous whole, rather than of the performance of any single individual. And in saying that I have already given my readers the keynote of Aston Villa’s success. We have attained our 1905 success because we were a homogeneous whole; because everyone on the side subordinated self to the general welfare of the team. Has any epoch-making team ever earned Its success in any other way? I trow not.

Football is essentially a game in which the individual must subdue his indivi­duality for the welfare of his side, but the Aston Villa team owed something to the fact that they did not play a cast-iron game. They subdue but do not seek to altogether repress the individual. We were all proud of winning the Cup [in 1905]. We thought we should win it; we did not enter into our games with any feel­ing of cocksureness. Woe betides the football club which enters into an Eng­lish Cup game with a jaunty air. We meant to excel, but we knew that would mean hard work and real trying. You never know when you are going to be beaten in a big cup tie.

Form fluctuates so much that a side you have beaten in a League encounter, and may, therefore, feel disposed to hold cheaply, may turn and rend you in a cup tie match. No, we were not cock­sure and we were not bumptious, but we did think quietly and conscientiously that our methods were sound, that we were all in form, and that we should last for the full space of 90 minutes. Let a side think in that wise, and they will play good football. We did not want to be photographed with the Cup before the snatch. I can assure you we were only too glad to know afterwards that we were entitled to have the Cup forming a conspicuous feature of our club group.

I spoke just now of the fact that we sought to subdue but not to utterly re­press the individual. I have long thought that combination has been carried to excess in football. There was a time when every team played a hard go-ahead game, in which the individual was everything: That was the dribbling age. Then came Preston North End with its subtle combination, and the dribbling game was found wanting; although, by the way, it must not be forgotten, in estimating the value of North End’s per­formances, that condition and superior physical fitness gave the Preston eleven a marked advantage over most of their early rivals.

Still. the lesson one learned from Mr. Sudell’s men was that combi­nation won games. But as each succes­sive team tried to perfect its combination individual ability was too little relied upon. Passing was overdone. The pub­lic were so accustomed to watching pretty, machine-like passing that they came to regard it as the be-all and end-all of a player’s presence on the field. They be­came (and indeed often are so to-day) quite intolerant if a player retained the ball in his possession for a few sec­onds. Now, this is a tendency to be deplored. The captain can soon give a man a hint if he evinces a disposition to dwell on the ball too long or to starve a partner whom it is his duty to feed. But it is not correct for the crowd to think that they are always right and that a player is wrong because he hap­pens not to do precisely what they deem expedient at a given time.

After all, we players do know some little about practical football, and the man who retains the ball and takes a glance around to see where he may best bestow it is not necessarily doing his side bad service. The man of genius, it may be, does things unconsciously, and always does them right; nearly always, at any rate: but we are not all geniuses; the Aston team, clever though it may be, is not made up of geniuses. Personally, I do not profess to be one, and I think each of my colleagues would like to pub­lish a similar disclaimer.

But passing was being overdone, and I make bold to say that the Aston Villa club once constituted one of the most conspicuous examples of excessive com­bination. It became axiomatic that Aston Villa could get more of the game than any club in the country, and yet could not be relied upon to win matches at home. We lost matches even in the earlier part of the season in winch we gained our Cup triumph because our passing was often purposeless. We could take the ball down the field. but we could not get goals. Teams who do too much passing almost invariably rank as bad shots. They get into a finicking style of play, and it naturally does not desert them when they get near goal. Why should it? It would be amazing if it did, would it not?

Next week: Part 2 of this article

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John Lerwill
I'm a Villan of more than 60 years standing and an occasional writer on Villa history. For me there is only one football club worth supporting, but I am now wondering whether I will again see anything like the pageant that was paraded under Ron Saunders or even that by Big Ron and Brian Little. My glass, however, is always half-full! Click here for my Villa website.

Comments 62

  1. Trinity

    Hello, JL. Thank you for another insightful view in to the old villa way
    “Football is essentially a game in which the individual must subdue his indivi­duality for the welfare of his side, but the Aston Villa team owed something to the fact that they did not play a cast-iron game. They subdue but do not seek to altogether repress the individual.”
    Getting today’s wealthy footballers to bow down for the sake of the team is tougher than ever Too much money, ego and fear. Nevertheless some succeed.
    “We could take the ball down the field. but we could not get goals. Teams who do too much passing almost invariably rank as bad shots.”
    Mmm. This sounds familiar. The aim is to score goals and prevent the oppostion scoring them. Maybe our strikers get dazzled by too much “purposeless” passing. Kodjia being the exception because he thought, what a load of bollocks, my job is to score goals, so he often did his own thing (good and bad) and often succeeded, enough, at least, to silence the critics. He knew what his primary job was.
    I think Howard Spencer’s philosophy is similar to John Devey’s. The idea being to get the ball in the opposition’s net without passing the ball around pointlessly. Hard work, loyalty/humility, creativity, flexibility,. That was the successful Villa way

  2. John Lerwill

    Iana: “I think Howard Spencer’s philosophy is similar to John Devey’s. “

    Undoubtedly. Devey learnt a lot from watching Hunter and the Villa team of the 1880s, while Spencer was a 19-year-old when inducted into the Villa side with Devey already having been skipper for 2 years.

    But despite their philosophy, Villa were renowned for missing as many goals as they scored through passing it around too much! They probably improved their play in that regard as time went on, but the reputation did not go away.

    In today’s game, my feeling is that there are not enough players who take the bit by the teeth and make a charge (or ‘rush’ as it was called in the old days) to break through a defence – by skill. I saw a refreshing attitude in the Cup Final last Saturday in this regard, when Pedro tried to burst through a couple of times, but that kind of play happens too rarely. More is needed I feel.

  3. John Lerwill

    Iana,

    Regarding your item on the previous thread about the rugby tour, I read an article this morning that said that back in 1971 they played three times more games on tour over 3 times the period, and each player received 75p p.d. for expenses!

  4. Mark King

    Thanks JL- I agree that you can easily overpass, unfortunately what I have seen from our team is inaccurate passing and at a slow pace and to the wrong players, decisive movement is our problem which makes me think they are afraid to move forward quickly from our park the bus position, all counter attack sides have to master this or its a pointless tactic. As for shooting we have had possession and we have not had it but in both instances our shot conversion was poor. Most of our goals have come from players breaking the line on their own mainly Kodjiah and Adomah under Bruce.

  5. OldVilla

    Cracking article JL, loving the comparison which we will all be making between days of old and the modern times.
    Iana – spot on mate. Good summary of what was/is required to make a team a real team and a successful one.
    I also think the following was quite apt – “The captain can soon give a man a hint if he evinces a disposition to dwell on the ball too long or to starve a partner whom it is his duty to feed. But it is not correct for the crowd to think that they are always right and that a player is wrong because he hap­pens not to do precisely what they deem expedient at a given time.”
    The first point is that we still need a real captain/leader on the pitch which has been missing for a number of years.
    The second point even way back then, is that ‘the crowd’ (social media?) are not always right just because what some expect (hope?) will happen doesn’t happen. Absolutely spot on!! Support your team no matter what, just as we did as recently as the 70’s & 80’s. Hmmmm – before social media …..

    oldvilla

  9. Trinity

    JL-“…back in 1971 they played three times more games on tour over 3 times the period, and each player received 75p p.d. for expenses!”
    That certainly was a magical team, so many legends of rugby. My dad’s cousin, Andy Irvine,was a youngster on that tour.
    The Provincial Baabaas did well against the Lions. For most of the Baabaas, the game against the Lions will be the biggest game they’ll ever play. Most of them are from small provinces like Wanganui, King Country, Thames Vally etc. Maybe some of them did enough to get professional contracts in Super rugby.
    I think the game was good for both teams. Baabaa players got to showcase themselves and play in a match they can talk to the grandchildren about and the Lions got a taste of what to expect. I think everyone came through unscathed.

  10. Mark King

    Iana- I am hoping the lions come through in one piece its a lot of rugby to play against fierce opposition, do you think it diminishes the lions chance of success In NZ?

  11. John Lerwill

    The Champions League Final

    85 minutes gone, RM 3-1 up and Sergio Ramos gets a player sent off in the most pathetic way. One minute writhing on the ground and the next minute trotting away without any trouble whatsoever.

    It took the gloss of the game completely away for me. Awful.

  13. Trinity

    JL
    Sorry to hear about the attacks. It is a cruel ideology that these so-called terrorists adhere to.

    Mark
    Many think it diminishes their chances, but it could toughen them up for the tests. Ian McGeechan thinks so. I think the Lions will win a test, but lose the series. Being a half-breed I don’t feel strongly about the All Blacks losing to the Lions. I have duel nationality UK/NZ, so am a neutral. The Lions have come to NZ to beat the All Blacks. Gatland has said if they lose other games, but win the series, they’ll be remembered as legends. The hard games might unite the Lions. It could also break them. I think, it’ll harden them so it’ll be a good series and the players will return home better players, win or lose. There’s tremendous respect for the Lions here. If they, the Lions, do win, it’s not like losing to England, Australia or England because the Lions is more about a concept…something dying out in sport. There’s a few Kiwis in the Lions. In the past Jamie Salmond and John Gallagher of England played for the All Blacks. Blues are up next for Lions. The Blues are based in Auckland and are the weakest NZ super team, but still excellent on the night. I cringe to say I’m a Blues fan because I think of those other Blues over by you.

  14. John Lerwill

    Darren O’Rourke…

    Are you out there?!

    I’ve just come across “The round towers of Ireland; or, The history of the tuath-de-danaans
    by O’Brien, Henry”, available as a PDF download at https://archive.org/details/roundtowersofire00obri

    I know you’re an avid student of Irish history. What do you think of this publication, old that it is (pub’d 1898, 50+ years after the death of the author)?

  17. James Gill

    andrew
    if bruce signs whelan , thats the end for me , we need players that pass the ball forwards run forward not sideways and back only way whelan can play
    this transfer talk is like taylor last time in charge signing ronny johnson leohardson kinsella over hill big name players why
    wagner reduced hudddersfield wage bill last season as did silva in his few months in charge of hull how? getting rid of overpaid underwork brittish stars signing good young players not like lambert crap

  19. Trinity

    JL
    If Dr X isn’t being disingenuous, he’s around for the long haul through thick & thin. That should help take pressure off the staff and players. It looks like Villa will be his pet project.
    I hope the players can come together as a top promotion candidate. Xia is certainly doing his bit. He has certainly taken the bit by the teeth. Thanks for the link.

  20. DarrenO

    Hi JL

    I’m afraid I’m more prone to the explanation of round towers as defensive structures against Viking raids than some ancient phallic symbol worship. That book was published in 1834 when O’Brien was alive and re-published in 1898. I think it lends itself to be debunked beyond the obvious for all pagan religions to have commonalties around the sun, moon, stars, fertility etc

    I will say as with all folklore and it’s verbal tradition that these ‘stories’ come from original truths that have been embellished for the purpose of story telling such as the Tuath de Danann being magical fairy folk following their defeat by Milesius, there is no doubt that Irish DNA extends to the Middle East and Eastern Europe in one wave and this maybe represented by the Tuath de Danann and the Iberian connection which Milesius and his invasion would account for dark hair/dark skinned Irish but as for the Fir Bolg ( early inhabitants of Ireland) I can only assume as with any small population that assimilation into the various invading parties has removed any traces of origin or evidence to show where they were from.

    Search out ‘The book of Invasions’ it’s a mythological account of the early history of Ireland, however as with any written source, it was heavily Christianised so some of the folklore/history may have been lost in creating/attributing a Christian history of Ireland

  21. John Lerwill

    Thanks Darren,

    Yes, I can see your logic and there’s certainly something fascinating about your old country.

    I’m not actually looking very deeply into it all just now, but I hope I will be able to spend some time doing that.

  24. IanG

    Hi all,
    Thanks for the article JL.
    I think something [anything] might move after thursday, even villa.
    lana – I watched the game & there will be a marked difference starting when the main players get involved when they arrive.
    But the B team sort of managed.

    To do with the sad atrocities in Manchester & London, here’s a very factual article that puts some politician BS in perspective.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/emilydugan/this-former-police-commander-says-cuts-to-community?utm_term=.jcdkmavB3#.icAGzPlJx

  26. IanG

    JL
    Well put, as no one seems to be able to understand anything other than the sound byte level any more.
    The positives of even a small change in direction far outweigh any fears of what damage the labour party might do economically, especially as big business & the tory press will churn out the hysterical reactionary propaganda & remind everyone that they are sheep & to say baa.
    The state of our economy is wobbly as you say JL, & as usual if labour do get in they will find UK plc asset stripped, so the only way left to create jobs & therefore wealth & business opportunities is to borrow & invest [which the IMF says we should be doing].
    The banks have taken the p**s & the public money without providing the prescribed investment in small business, but they’re happy, which is not surprising considering they have not had to pay for or answer for their actions that led to the international crash in the first place, & the investors have made a killing.
    But of course the tories are still blaming labour instead of the people who caused the crash in the first place [themselves].
    No political party is perfect but the current extreme right wing american model which the tories have adopted, is well proven to create a lot of pain for everyone other than the wealthy who have adopted it.
    Even a small change has an enormous effect on those most in need, but fear of personal loss is the well tried & tested propaganda that is killing the planet let alone the individuals [I first came to disability benefits in Thatcher’s time[awful], & the current version is much, much worse].
    If you don’t care then I am talking to the morally deaf
    The constant americanisation of business ethics is cementing the whole 1930’s model of society, & we know what happened there.
    Now we have a virtual work house to look forward to,
    BAAA!

    You may like these below, as a sense of humour is all we have left.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2017/may/16/steve-bell-on-labours-2017-manifesto-cartoonhttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2017/may/30/steve-bell-theresa-may-alone-and-naked-brexit-negotiations-cartoonhttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2017/may/30/steve-bells-if-theresa-may-serves-childrens-breakfast

  28. John Lerwill

    IanG,

    In fact, it’s clear to me that there is a behind-the-scenes manipulation of world society taking place towards the Tory/Republican model. I’ve even seen it hinted that the financial centre of the world will become located in Israel.

    But I have faith other events will take place over the next few years that will scupper that process, but it depends on the young to make their voices heard.

  29. Mark King

    JL- IanG- I’m fed up with politics and peoples attitudes in general. We are the only animal on this earth that I know of with a sense of entitlement to a standard of Living while destroying our own habitat. We have on the whole more than we ever have had in possessions, comfort and opportunities yet still we measure what we have against those with more, Instead of thinking whats the least I need to be happy, happens from top to bottom. What a curious mixture of animal instincts and conscious action we are. We really need to start caring about this planets life and each other ASAP the clock is ticking.

    As far as moneys concerned the whole things on the brink the reckoning is 60% of the world will be bankrupt in 50 years, Russia and China are ok though, so expect a war.

  30. Trinity

    12-10, Blues winning at HT.
    I think the Lions played better rugby in the first half but didn’t quite play for 40 minutes in that first half, which let SBW in for his try in extra time.
    The Blues often haven’t been an 80 minute team. Looking forward to second half.

  31. Trinity

    22-6, Blues win.
    Thought the Lions’ forwards, especially the locks, went well. The Blues’ backs had a bit too much pace and power.
    Interesting the Blues dropped their best lock, All Black Patrick Tuipolotu, for being late to training, so when I think of Gabby, I get a bit angry considering what he’s done. Tuipolotu lost a chance to play the Lions . He’ll lose a bit of pay, too.

  34. John Lerwill

    Iana,

    It’s the policies that matter. The young seem to be gathering in force to support Labour as they see a more reasonable future with their policies.

  36. DarrenO

    This morning while grabbing some breakfast, Sky News gave a round up of the front pages and all bar two were anti Corbyn (not anti Labour) and the other two focussed on no-name terrorist wanting to be one.

    It would be some job if Corbyn faced with the media bias were able to win the election. During Brexit, those undecided, where possible via Facebook given suggested links (like immigration images) that would sway how they voted, I assume Cambridge Analytics is doing the same thing in this election.

  37. John Lerwill

    Darren,

    I don’t think anyone thinks that Labour will win, but there’s every chance that there could be a hung Parliament. YouGov currently predicts 304 Tory seats, which is 22 short of majority needed.

  39. DarrenO

    So they’ll end up propped up by the Unionists parties and probably see the Lib Dems jump into bed with the Tories, their leader seems to be as far removed from the meaning of liberal as possible so looks to be a suitable compatriot for May.

  40. Mark King

    JL- I suppose the young can’t remember Labours last bunch as much, are labour back in love with Corbin now he’s done well this time? my only regret is that there is no opposition to the whole lot of them. They all seem to be chasing the popular Vote and as half of the people wanted to save hospitals with Brexit they will now back Labour. When will the majority take responsibility back for there own well being and actions? I hope there is a groundswell for major change but swapping the EU Nanny state for the Labour Nanny state will be another step backwards IMO but I can understand peoples fear of being left to fend for themselves the way communities have gone. Those in power are only there because we agreed to it but I see no hope if the average person was to take the reigns either, that would take someone of incredible will and vision with incorruptible morals…………………so more of the same then.

  41. IanG

    Mark
    It’s easy to criticise others when one is one of the more fortunate.
    It is not about how much one has, but what value you put on it that is not monetarily based, but our society is biased to a greed based model which impacts most on the poorer elements & wastes resources across the spectrum.
    Entitlement? Well the most striking thing about keeping the disabled in poverty is that it is a sideshow in a way while their mindless agenda is promoted to the detriment of all if you take a broad view.

    As JL says to change something one has to act in a different way & oppose the greed game, & right now we have an election which is why these things are mentioned.
    If we change the current model even a smidgin, we head towards the mind set of less raping & pillaging of the planet by default.
    Currently we cannot do a lot about the environment except by personal example due to extreme greedy philistines being in power.
    If the situation allowed it many people would vote Green, but currently that would empower the extremes such as our present government so would be stupid, counterproductive & painful to the more impoverished human beings which actually enables the greed agenda which is killing us all along with the planet we live on.
    You also seemed to misunderstand & forget that they are all linked.
    It brings to mind the old chestnut of does a falling tree in the forest still make a noise if we are not there to hear it.
    This is not a personal attack as I also value the diversity, especially on this site

  42. Mark King

    Oh and lets not forget police numbers, there’s another vote winner when the answer is really IMO for the people who know these radicals in their communities to step up as one so they have nowhere to hide, then for the Government to act incisively on the info they have. There is so much emotion going about I am afraid this country is about to make a less than rational decision, does make you wonder why its all happening now? bit like the labour MP killed by a nutter before Brexit, conspiratorial but it does cross your mind

  43. IanG

    Mark – I am not in love with the labour party either, but do not see the point in keeping things as they are as change begets change.
    Nanny states? That phrase makes me laugh when I remember my Gran who was born in the 1890’s.
    Before the NHS was created after the war, unless you had money you had to suffer illness & death without much help, which shortened many, many people’s lives & many had to accept unnecessary suffering.
    This is unacceptable from any humanitarian point of view, & we have to try & expand the opposite to all people & reflect it onto all creatures & their home.
    But to deny the reality via promoting fear & greed is narcissistic & deadly for all.
    I find little respect for all people if we act out of fear & in a destructive narrow part of the spectrum.
    This is not a PPB but a plea for action as we are at a pivotal point.

  44. Mark King

    Ian G- no worries mate I wasn’t talking about those that cannot fend for themselves but the millions that can and choose to smoke, drink to excess and eat rubbish then demand to be fixed, that is where personnel responsibility lies, I am not advocating every man for himself either and I am no saint but I am aware of the dangers and act accordingly most of the time, most know nothing nor want to. Fascinates me that people will feed there animals appropriate diets generally then forget with themselves.

    I really don’t think anything will change if we vote for Labour and the real problem is massive over population worldwide, world was less polluted with less of us needing less resources. Stopping greed? good luck with that.

  45. IanG

    Mark
    Also police numbers, well for one we never see any in Brum, & when we do get a response from them outside of racing round in cars bullying everyone & never getting out of them, they are mostly dysfunctional unless it is the establishment that is threatened.
    Not a fan, but they are needed to keep the dangerous & narcissistic in check, but who watches the watcher as they say, as they are certainly not immune to corruption, but that is another issue.
    We do need a focus more on communities & people, otherwise no one can see the wood for the trees [or indeed terrorists].
    The answer as you put it has to be inclusive, not either or, & has to be effective beyond narrow interests, bureaucracies or agendas [including conspiracy theories].

  46. IanG

    Mark
    PS: Nothing will change with the current government either except to get worse – ‘judge me on my record’.
    Well it’s not very bright is it, & has been getting worse & more restrictive for 8 years while rearranging the national wealth upwards to the very top while business has got harder & the workers lot also with the poor getting the blame creating a negative ghetto siege mentality.
    Trickle down economics is a scam.
    Labour, well any movement usually relieves those least well off which is necessary, & makes more possible potentially, but the whole game is cyclic & we need to move away from the current model & integrate instead of compete, or the planet & the people in it are f****d.

  48. IanG

    Mark
    I think we all have the same problem of being crazy & inconsistent, I mean we support the villa.
    Indeed the villa could be more life affirmative also, as the time when a cup of tea & a pie being a luxury are long gone, but people do cling to that kind of thing.
    Yes we are entitled to be complete idiots, but it’s not advisable & definitely not life affirmative or helpful in any way, & we need to be able to admit it & not be so hard on ourselves & others.
    It’s the mind set that is the problem at VP I think, which is why we keep on going over the same old mistakes, & it seems to be a reflection of the general malaise in the world.

  49. John Lerwill

    Mark: “lets not forget police numbers, there’s another vote winner when the answer is really IMO for the people who know these radicals in their communities to step up as one so they have nowhere to hide, then for the Government to act incisively on the info they have.”

    Yes, that’s a fair point, but, there again, there used to be youth workers and community police who used to assist in the process, to intercept potential danger as well as the reporting back. They had a vital role which ‘they’ (this lot) decided we couldn’t afford any more.

    I hear a lot of what you say and agree with your tenor, but the right-wing parties are the biggest danger to freedom and if we get May have her head she might do anything. She might become a red head! 😀

  50. Mark King

    IanG- I agree we are fucked, the problem is people, they can’t or won’t help themselves and I include rich poor and in-between in that. The reason I cannot see labor making a crap of difference other than more rats leaving the brexit ship is it aint possible to do. Tories pledged £8bil to the NHS, Labour Pledged £10bil , NHS needs £30bil hhmmm….

  51. Mark King

    JL- 🙂
    lots of areas are hard to police now without looking racist and that isn’t the polices fault.Close relations are tough in a community that adheres to its own rules.

    Sad truth is we can’t afford much of what we have anyway the cupboards bare.

  54. r0bb0

    There’s a lot of cynicism on here about our political class and their ability to make a significant difference for the better. Sadly I feel pretty much the same.
    we really don’t seem well served by the current crop of politicians.
    The voting public do have to take a lot of the blame too and as Mark said, we really do need to take more responsibility for our own lives.
    The trouble is, far too many of us expect ‘someone else’ to sort things out for us rather than doing it for ourselves.
    As a small example, I was told that I ought to start taking statins because my cholesterol levels were too high. Six weeks later, after changing my diet, my cholesterol levels are 28% lower and I don’t need to impose that extra small burden on the NHS.
    We can’t keep pouring in more and more money into the NHS and expect it to do everything that we want it to.
    We need to start having open discussions about what the NHS ‘cant’ afford to do. Sadly our media polarise all debates which makes it hard for politicians to say what they really believe

  55. John Lerwill

    r0bb0/Mark,

    Agreed on the point of self-control is principle – in fact, very much so – but it is an educational process and one that cannot be delivered overnight. In the meantime those that have not followed what are now seen to be relevant ways may well need quite a lot of support. Compassion is still a requirement I suggest. Or, perhaps I should say ‘moderated compassion’.

  56. John Lerwill

    Mark: “Sad truth is we can’t afford much of what we have anyway the cupboards bare.”

    On that I fail to agree. There are a certain 5% or less in this country that have huge amounts of wealth. There does need to be better distribution of that wealth.

    And it will happen. Watch what happens over the next 5 to 8 years. All will unfold.

  57. IanG

    r0bb0
    Just to say that people of my age & older paid our insurance for our health plan [the NHS] from when we left school & started work.
    Now we’re rationed out of much of the preventative medicine & often basic care except for in emergencies, even a lot of GPs see us as a drain on their income.
    We also paid for our pensions for all that time.
    Now we are told that the rest of you can’t afford us, so it’s our fault.
    I hope that those who have that mindset come out of their safe room.

  58. Trinity

    Will Labour do anything about the migrant problem?

    Regarding health, I was born with heart issues, I’ve known about since age 16. Apparently my mother knew I had heart issues, but she died when I was 12 and my father left when I was 4. I’m very appreciative that I live in a society that still helps people in my situation.
    The government spent $24m on a wasteful flag referendum, which the majority didn’t care for, so they’re not as broke as they make out.

    I agree that people need to take more care for their personal health, it’s a no-brainer. Politically, I agree with JL and IanG on that issue. People are people all the time. It won’t change.
    I was at a heart rehab session a few months ago, when the topic turned to smoking. One chap, who’s wife had had a heart attack, argued that those who won’t stop smoking should get no health care. The trouble with that argument is that sugar, salt, fat, wine, beer etc can all be bad. So, one could argue those who won’t lose/gain weight should lose health care. Those who have addictions should lose health care. It could even be argued (Hitler did), people with genetic disabilities/diseases etc shouldn’t have kids. That is where the argument is going. Definitely people need to take better care of themselves. If the government wants to help, make it cheaper to buy veggies, fruit and fish. We’ve all agreed on that in the past.

    The government here is making the NZ Defence Forces smoke free. Think about that, they’ve taken away a freedom in the name of good health. Mmm. On the surface, it looks good, but to be honest, when I was a serviceman, the big health issue was alcohol. But the do-gooders probably drink alcohol themselves, so (to them, the hypocrites) that’s okay. While in the navy I saw young men going to alcohol units to dry out. I saw countless fights, family break ups, you name it. Never met any servicemen with cancer or emphysema, guess we were to young then. To be fair, they did away with rum rationing in the early nineties in the RNZN. The RN, I believe, gave it up in the 70s.

    The Lions will need to field a test strength team against the Crusaders on Saturday if they want to win. Gatland said people only remember the tests. True, but, as we well know, winning and losing are habits.

  59. IanG

    Mark
    I like Ronnie Corbett as well.
    Well the dread day has dawned so I’m going to bed to get the energy to go & vote.

  60. r0bb0

    JL, agree completely about the need for compassion to remain at the heart of whatever changes we end up making to funding in the NHS. You’re also right that it will need a long slow process of discussion and education. At least the realisation is starting to dawn that lines will have to be drawn somewhere. The discussion will revolve around where.
    Would be lovely to imagine that it could be a cross party discussion . . . . but that’s probably wishful thinking

  61. John Lerwill

    r0bb0: “Would be lovely to imagine that it could be a cross party discussion…”

    Too true. However, the Tories don’t think in truly compassionate terms as things stand. David Davies (on the BBC’s Question Time) referred to the public services as “things” that can be looked at only when we have a stronger economy. That could be never.

    However, I believe that national developments will encourage cross-party discussions in the not very distant future. It may start very quickly, of course, if a hung Parliament occurs as a result of today’s election.

  62. John Clark

    Great stuff, again, John. And much more useful and informative than all the speculation swirling around this time of year.

    My apologies for being so absent…This wedding business tends to demand a bit of time and attention. Anyway, come Saturday, I’ll be an honest man again.

    In the meantime, new post is up.

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