I am in the act of writing a book on the Villa that has called upon a great deal of newspaper research on-line, and the downloading of many articles in their pristine state, requiring scanning and processing through Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software, and subsequent correction. Many of these articles will not be included ‘verbatim’ in my book, but I thought it may be worthwhile to publish some of them on Aston Villa Life as an insight into the thinking back then – of 100 years ago and more. I am, therefore, intending to publish such an article every week through the summer.
These articles are published ‘as is’ with only a small attempt on my part at being helpful by the insertion of a comment or two.
Doubtless, the reader will find some of the language quite archaic, but I nevertheless hope that you persevere through the article and extract a good idea from it and grasp how evolutionary all the thinking was in those days. And also how much thought was expended on how to improve the game.
This (second) such article is by John Devey (as was the first), who was the great Villa captain over the period of 1893-1900 and is about what he remembered about the game of long before.
The content of this article is in fact a selected combination from two articles written in the late part of the 1920s.
Devey seems to indicate that at that time (in the later 1920s) the quality of football had depreciated from the standard that existed before the First World War, but it has been recorded by other football historians that by the mid-1930s, the quality of football had been restored, though perhaps of a different flavour to the old type.
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All rights reserved: No copying nor distribution without the consent of John Lerwill.
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JOHN DEVEY REMEMBERS
Some of the combination we used to witness in the palmy days of Preston North End, and later of Sunderland, and then of Aston Villa, was delightful. But we shall never see it again: so long as football is conducted on the present lines it is hopeless to expect it. The ball will always be hooked out to a man who, his side hope, will flash away with it, and while there may be something exhilarating in that it does not adequately replace scientific work, in which possibly the whole front line participated, that was a feature of football years ago.
I remember being struck with amazement the first time I saw Preston North End play. Now I had been educated in a good school; I was quite a clever little fellow when I was 14 years of age, and used to play with fellows much older; in the days of the old Birmingham Excelsior I was still young, and used to play with relatives who seemed decidedly older, and, in fact, were decidedly older.
I used to admire the football of Aston Villa long before the day that I was privileged to become associated with the club. I remember the days of Eli Davis, Howard Vaughton, Archie Hunter, Olly Whateley and Andy Hunter, and revelled in their charming football. They played fast and clever football, for Archie Hunter was a football genius, and the greatest captain we have ever had: no man had such a stimulating effect upon a team as Archie Hunter had.
Archie Hunter had a peculiar fascination for me. His influence with his men was so magnetic that I think I unconsciously fashioned many of my ideas on his. He was a ceaseless worker, and a man who set his men a glorious example. He never allowed their energies to flag.
There is a great deal in the art of captaincy, a great deal more than the average modern player would probably be content to concede. A great captain makes a vital difference.
But when I saw Preston North End (in their early days as a great combination, I mean, and I don’t think any football team has quite reached their standard), and if it happened that a half-back went along with the ball, one of the forwards instantly stepped back, and while backing up the man with the ball, manifested a desire to make sure that the efficiency of the defence was not marred.
The North End men were masters of the art of interchanging positions. They made a speciality of playing up the centre with the inside men. There was a perfect understanding between the forwards and the half-backs, and their three middlemen [half-backs] were absolute masters of tactics. … And I am ‘not exaggerating when I say that when you played against them, or were watching them, you had to move your head from side to aide as fast as you could in order to keep pace with the movements of the ball. There is nothing like that to-day…
But there was one point in the Villa’s favour—we were faster than they were. We were quicker on the ball, and took fewer passes to achieve the same object. They had no-one who could race off like Charlie Athersmith.
Aston Villa were a great side, and some of our achievements will never be forgotten. Surely there has never been a finer game than the Final of 1897, when we beat Everton, and won the double event for the second time in the history of football.
We saw some of the finest football the world has seen between 1890 and 1900.
Again, who will ever forget the wonderful play of Joe Bache and Albert Hall in the Cup Final of 1905, when we beat Newcastle by 2-0. I think their combination was the finest I have ever seen from a wing pair. It always reminded me of the three-card trick, and of the operation of trying to ‘Find the Lady.’ When the half-back went to find the ball it was never where he had hoped to find it.
I remember a game not very long ago between Aston Villa and Derby County at Villa Park when the Derby team gave such a delightful display of skilful manoeuvring with the ball that at the interval the whole crowd rose and cheered them to the echo. And they were the visiting side!
[But now] you see too many irregular long sweeping passes up the field from both half-backs and forwards to the centre man when the latter has no earthly chance of scoring. Why make such a fetish of the goal-scoring centre[-forward]? Every man on the side ought to be able to score goals,
I remember Harold Halse coming to the Aston Villa team [in 1912] and making the attack effective, not by brilliant play so much as by finding openings for the other men, and then taking their return passes advantageously. To-day we see far too many lamping kicks returned by the backs in similar fashion. That may make the game look fast, but it does not suggest what I should call fast football.
It is remarkable what a fast, brilliant pass will do. I remember John Reynolds had a splendid pass, which sent the ball right across to the outside left, between the half-back and the back. The wingman had to be quick in getting to the ball, but it is a fact that Albert Woolley once scored three goals against Preston North End from that pass, and Steve Smith obtained three against Everton in precisely the same way [both players were left-wingers].
You will see that I am here careful to avoid slating present-day players; I have not the slightest ideas of doing that. They are what they are largely because of the operation of the law of cause and effect. I say we of the old school played the kind of game which made us better players than we originally were. We played with our heads more, and we were not always enjoined to think that pace was everything.
Some writer said … that control of the ball is what our players want. We want more control, possibly, but what is wanted far more is brain control.
I remember the time when young players had extraordinary control of the ball. I know my brother Will had. You would have thought the ball was tied to his foot to see him juggle with it. Olly Whateley was gifted in the same way, and frequently it used to amuse me to see fellows come out of church and play with a small ball.
But do not think I am unduly pessimistic. I think there is more good football to-day than ever there was. It may not be so good as it was, but then the experts were confined to a few teams.
[This is the last of the narratives by John Devey]
The Author
John Lerwill
I'm a Villan of more than 60 years standing and an occasional writer on Villa history. For me there is only one football club worth supporting, but I am now wondering whether I will again see anything like the pageant that was paraded under Ron Saunders or even that by Big Ron and Brian Little. My glass, however, is always half-full! Click here for my Villa website.Comments 133
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“We want more control, possibly, but what is wanted far more is brain control.” I notice John Devey says after church, players used to practice with a smaller ball. Sounds like a good idea, We used to do that in our touch rugby training.
Archie Hunter must have been a true genius to have JD singing his praises. I noticed too that JD got used to playing with older players early on. It certainly helped him.
“It is remarkable what a fast, brilliant pass will do.” Sounds like the “Villa way” they’re looking for. Steve Bruce and his coaches should be reading this.
[But now] “you see too many irregular long sweeping passes up the field from both half-backs and forwards to the centre man when the latter has no earthly chance of scoring.” Sounds abit like poor old Hogan and a bit of back-to-the-future going on.
It is true, Villa has its future in its past. I believe the solution for Villa to suceed is in Villa, not from elsewhere. The Villa way of the past seems to me to be a recipe for success in the future. To implement it, competent players and coaching staff, who will buy into it are necessary. I think our midfielders (+1) are competent enough. I’d play Jedinak at the back with Taylor and Chester. Those three are pretty smart.
Good post, JL-cheers.
Iana: “I believe the solution for Villa to succeed is in Villa, not from elsewhere. The Villa way of the past seems to me to be a recipe for success in the future.”
Exactly; hole in one! 🙂
This is part of the reason behind the book I’m writing – to say that we had the formula, but we just need to re-apply it.
Interestingly, though, I believe that with the setup now established at VP, we have the best chance of getting to that state. No, I’m not saying we are perfectly there, but with the kind of chairman we have and the structure he’s created, it is a far, far better scenario than in Lerner’s time. But we’ll see…
Iana,
Yes, Archie Hunter was – apparently – a pillar of strength that all the other players admired – as well as the fans.
At 5′ 10″ he was by today’s standards not a big man, but I found that in his time (the 1880s), most players were only about 5′ 6″ to 5′ 8″, so he must have stood out like a giant, especially as he was well built.
Archie still holds the club record for the number of goals scored in the FA Cup, would you believe (34 goals)! In 1887 he scored in every round and was the first player to do so. Harry Hampton also achieved that in 1905.
JL
Another thing that strikes me about John Devey’s recollections is it was clubs like Villa, PNE and Derby that played the best football. Seems the better football was generally played from the midlands and northern regions. I guess Arsenal would be an exception. Is that correct?
I’m going to watch the England vs Barbarians at 0200 (NZT).
Thanks for the article JL, much appreciated as is your reply posts lana.
No energy to say more.
Here’s one for those who are prepared to come out of their foxholes & look.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy
The national & international implications & the story itself are far more than the hook of the title, as it’s not really about brexit.
But it is truly spooky
Iana,
The southern teams (Chelsea and Arsenal) did not enter the Football League until around 1905! Until that time, the Villa were (with Small Heath and Albion) the southernmost clubs in the FL.
Arsenal did not start to make any major inroads until around 1927 after they acquired Herbert Chapman from the very successful Huddersfield Town, as manager.
I can remember a comment Villa’s Billy Walker made in his newspaper column about 1929: “It would be novel for Arsenal to win the championship”. Two years later they did it for the first time.
Actually the best teams in the 1890s were PNE, then Sunderland and then Villa, but Villa took over as early as 1893 and stayed top dog for another 20+ years. Derby flittered in and out as a league force, but for many years they had the great Steve Bloomer in their side. He kept John Devey from getting many caps.
It’s also true that Manchester United did not start to become a force until a. 1905, soon after they were re-named from Newton Heath. An old Villa committee man, Al Albutt, was Newton Heath’s first club manager/secretary ca. 1890. But Man U did not start to become a major force until after WW2, Liverpool even later.
Like Villa, Everton’s honours have been spread over the many years of their existence, except that Everton’s overall record is getting better than Villa’s now. They’ve not been relegated since the early 1950s, and then only for one season since WW2.
Archie Hunter
For those really interested in this great player and Villa’s early days, there are copies of my 2-volume ‘Aston Villa Chronicles’ available at the online Soccerbooks. The first volume holds a great deal of information that you may like on this.
Alternatively, ‘Google’ the aston villa chronicles soccerbooks to find all copies available – you may find some going at a cheaper price.
JL
£30 second hand & £44.95 new on Amazon
Beyond my pocket mate.
IanG,
It’s only a suggestion! For 2 hardback volumes and 1,000 pages you can’t expect much else I’m afraid! 😉
JL
yes in a way, in terms of modern financial models, but in terms of relative incomes it’s way out of my & many other’s league.
No blame was being attributed to you, just a personal statement as incomes are getting greater by the day, with the ‘successful’ drawing away from the majority not in that position.
A successful operation redistributing wealth upwards by the International moguls via their recent tory government stooges.
JL
Not only that, but it has uncomfortable historical resonance with reading & books only for the ruling classes not us peasants.
Bit like the Villa also.
IanG,
No personal slight was taken Ian! … I know what you’re saying – it’s just that it was expensive to produce.
Soccer Books: http://www.soccer-books.co.uk/acatalog/The-Aston-Villa-Chronicles-1874-1924–and-after–5125.html You get 10% discount from them if you buy £60 worth of books.
IanG: “Not only that, but it has uncomfortable historical resonance with reading & books only for the ruling classes not us peasants.”
Actually I buy a lot of books, but many of them are second hand and come from Amazon’s ‘used’ facility where you often get books for as little as 1p!!! (plus some postage).
It’s worth looking into, but you have to know the author or the book title you’re searching for.
JL
Absolutely, but your book is unfortunately at the secondhand price of £30 on amazon.
I also use ebooks as there thousands free, including very unusual & ancient books & other publications.
Then there is always the skull & crossbones for ebooks, can be quite enlightening, but sadly there are not many of that ilk who appear to be villa supporters
Iang,
I have just been thinking about this matter – Archie Hunter and the story of those days in The Villa Chronicles.
I think it would be possible to do a PDF of the relevant articles, and priced at about £5.
If anyone is interested, please drop me a message via my avatar, and if there are more than 10 people interested I might be able to lower the price.
Sorry, not my avatar … just click on my name.
Another excellent article JL, which I much appreciate, and also concur with Iana’s comments.
I shall now look forward to more of the same.
Schindler’s list……..
Is Aston Villa really so much worse than Reading …and Huddersfield..????
Congratulations to David Wagner…..and his team…especially a Liverpool goalkeeper called Ward…!!!
Well done Huddersfield and Wagner, £3m net spent and deserved with the season they have had and he played the play offs superbly tailoring off in the last few games once they’d qualified. Gutted for us that we didn’t have the foresight to get him in.
PP- yes we were worse very much so in application, heart and tactics
Agreed MK!
AS Wagner said,
” Experience Is important, but not everything”
which was qualifying all the people saying
” you need an experienced manager….you need experienced players ….to win the championship…..”
He did not have the experience….he did not have the experienced players…Villa take note…
Huddersfield in the top six for 45 weeks out of 46….
No big wins…but they were “fit enough to compete” and win.
Now back at the top after 45 years….
Seems to be the time of the smaller clubs….Brighton, Burnley…Swansea….Bournemouth…Leicester.. and Southampton were probably the pioneers who showed the way.
PP- I think that other than Nakki wells their forward line is pretty much unknown and not a patch on what we had available. they one a lot by the odd goal but where they differ from us is they controlled games a lot and created a lot, they just didn’t have good finishers.
I love to hear Wagner talk, no hard luck stories just a straight forward explanation of how he set out to win the game, today he said they abandoned the high press because of the oppositions style, I really do think he will go far, degree in biology and sport science too and a natural leader.
one =won 🙂
Mark/PP
Well you said it, nothing more to say.
I wish them well in the premiership
Cruel for Reading, but they now have to rebuild, so level playing field come august
Yes, well done Wagner and all …
But I still say their job was easier in some respects … no expectation, no great heritage to live up to (apart from the 1920s), and no great foul-up and running down of their club over the preceding 4+ years.
The formula to succeed there is not necessarily applicable to all.
Back in 1967-68 Villa spent quite a bit for those days but only got themselves sucked into 3rd-tier direction and needed a revolution to pull ’em round.
Well, we’re having to go through a revolution now, too. Or at least maybe the re-structuring has been done and we’re now set for the recovery.
I believe for every drop of rain that falls
A flower grows
I believe that somewhere in the darkest night
A candle glows
I believe for everyone who goes astray, someone will come
To show the way
I believe, I believe…
JL,
I am glad. Someone has to believe…..but it is very clear that luck is not involved. It is about belief, method, Hard work, hard work, working together, and finally, hard work to be better than everyone else.
Paul,
Agreed – you can’t depend on luck and your formula is sooooo important.
But that’s what we’re trying to get to … with all the psychological impediments that I’ve referred to put behind us.
Ive not really seen it re Huddy. Since Mark mentioned them I have watched them and they aint been good. In the playoffs they played 3, scored 1 which was an own goal and won 0!!
That’s the playoffs for you! it reflects badly on us though as you only need to be half bloody decent and have a bit of luck to get out the champ.
andrew
only few weeks since you where laughing at wagner, changing entire team after getting in play offs,no money worth spent ,got decent loans in had a system style players all bought into it, would love a manager like that at villa, think little was last one came in and did it his was
JG
Unfortunately we still have you know who, but he is in the last chance saloon.
If it doesn’t change by november we could see the last of him.
The last one I had any time for was Remi Garde, but he got badly let down.
I see Paul Lambert has left the Dog Heads, wanted control over recruitment, so dont blame him for sticking to his principles. No doubt he’ll fetch up somewhere in he Championship.
I personally think all three promoted teams will not find it easy next season, the Premier league is very unforgiving. Its a 40 point chase for those clubs outside the top seven. Win 10 and draw 10 of the 38 fixtures and your there…..if thats what you want….
james
not sure I ever laughed at the guy. Just not buying into the hype. The one thing we seem to not like about bruce is style of play. the times I have watched huddy play they have been zzzz! Imagine if it wasa bruce team in the playoff final would of been slaughtered for bad footy!!
but yes for huddy a great achievement going up.
ian g
didnt count remi as you say he never got a chance,but would have loved him last summer, and one big bonus would never seen gabby playing for us again
andrew
some one beat hudersfield 3 0 and you came on and ran him down for it, and what i seen of final it was good both teams going for it no parking bus, as for bruce style he aint got one its sign 10/5 players a season and hope for best 30m spent in january and no stand out performers
A year to the day that we appointed di Matteo, and we are no further forward, but have spent a heap of cash, without really improving anything.
de Laet now ready for the fray, wonder how he will fit in Bruce’s plans????
Leicester win the Hong Kong sevens and beat us 3-0 after we failed to get over the line.
Andrew- Huddersfield have not played as badly as us this season whatever you think of them, Bruces version of football and Rdms has been much worse. what exactly are you expecting for a £3m net spend? its not like they sold someone for a big fee, they are small club that have been out of the top flight for years and in his first season he keeps them up, second promotes them. You refuse to buy into the Wagner hype but stick up for Bruce who’s shown you very little to shout about this season. Their strength is in their togetherness, no real stars and a plan, Wagner says its two to three years ahead of where he thought they’d be what are we? I am still waiting for our promotion specialist to impress me, Wagner did that way before Xmas for me 🙂
JL- I really think a Wagner would of got this team sorted depressed club or not, he has the brains and the drive, Bruce is Mr cautious which may not work for him at Villa as it has at lesser clubs, we don’t want to see every team we play treated like Barca, we need to respect them but in order for us to get better they need to fear us to an extent.
pp
bruces plans
fill squad with overpaid under worked players
every team he has managed has had bloated squads
the letting hutton earn contract extension was crazy ,we were out of play off chances yet carried on playing hutton to pay out another 2m to a full back who went entire season in championship without a goal or even 1 assist madness shows round and wynes business brain to be poor too they ok signing of bree with delaet due back for new season
Well I have just heard some very disappointing news from someone in the know. All the injured players have gone out to Portugal for three weeks so no Hols and Bruce has said they will have to pay for it themselves. Jack has asked to be given a program to stop him getting hamstring injuries. Likelihood is they will either get fit or be sold.
Worse bit of news there are four camps of about 5 players each do for cliques, lots of bickering between the players about who’s paid what and who’s getting sold, no team spirit whatsoever, Elphick tries his best but it is pretty bad. Mr Bruce has got a lot to sort out sounds like the mad house. The new players by the way are one of the cliques.
Hello Mark, always arguments about wages, not unduly surprised about divisions in the the dressing room. Its make or break for SB, everyone knows it including the man himself, the first 5/6 games we’ll all know. Of course it will be too late to change at that stage, but I think the gamble is just the same as replacing SB right now with ….whoever. Hindsights a wonderful thing, if we’d have employed Wagner or Rowett or retained Garde, who knows. Didn’t Wagner turn the post down after R di M left?
No news coming out of VP, only the stuff the Birmingham Mail has redressed like a piece of Tuna Fish to shift Monday lunchtime.
The journey continues……oh and avoid the Tuna fish with white wine reduction Monday lunchtimes.
Archie
Mark: ” I really think a Wagner would of got this team sorted depressed club or not, he has the brains and the drive”
I know you like him! 😀
Seriously, I wouldn’t be so sure. So much has fizzled and fazzled at VP this last few years that I’m not sure anyone would have been able to get Villa back up first time around.
First, thanks for the articles, JL. Good stuff.
Reading through, couple things strike me. All credit to Huddersfield, but I understand where Andrew’s coming from.
I think, in the end, this ties in with the second thing, which is Mark talking about cliques and divisions. That’s the kind of thing that goes a long way to explaining what might be different about Huddersfield.
When you have a bunch of guys, none of whom are making much, slogging it out in the lower leagues, you bond. The egos aren’t as big and all the rest. We always talk about “professionals” and what we expect, but to excel you have to be hungry. And to play together, you have to want to, every man putting in maximum effort, trusting that everyone else is putting in the same work, playing the system, pulling together.
Simple, but I really wouldn’t be surprised at divisions in the camp, given all the changes. And this would go back over several years, now.
And I guess I mean to say that it’s not just ‘changes’, but the kinds of changes. Each preceding side indicted, replacements brought in to put things right—some on pretty big wages and transfer fees. Big expectations, players all believing they should be in the PL, which is why they’re coming to Villa (and the money, of course). Nothing organic has taken place. One emergency after another.
I’m not saying these aren’t good guys, but there’s a lot of built-in opportunities for fractures, etc. Maybe the most valuable thing the summer could do is give guys a chance to maybe like each other, settle down, and get comfortable so they can get on with it.
Jl – didn’t say first time around John I said sorted from day one I thought it would be tough with our problems but I didn’t expect to be this far adrift with no format worth calling. From what I have heard doesn’t seem Bruce is in control just angry
Mark,
If you’re right about Bruce then we’ll see it all fall apart by October/November, as IanG says.
Until then I’d prefer to keep my blood pressure down! 😉
Jl – well 5 months or more in he’s asking about injurys and fitness? Wagner has a degree in sport science I think he may have sorted the background a lot quicker and that’s besides his ability as a motivator and tactician. Not feeling sure about round at this point.
Mark,
Thing is, that Wagner did not come to Villa and I still believe that the circumstances at VP have been a heck of a lot different to Hudders.
We don’t know whetherWagner or his ilk will have done any better. It’s all conjecture – ain’t it?
Jl – where as Bruce did and failed? Just highlighting that more sports educated manager might have seen sooner. No secret I rated garde for similar reasons we needed a manager with experience of how a modern day club runs behind the scenes and got a man manager that is used to leaving it to someone else. From what I heard yesterday he’s in over his head would be my guess
Jl Huddersfield perennial non achievers? If he can get them operating as an efficient club why not us? I think you are totally overblowing the villas troubles, just plain lack of knowledge in the right areas
Archie
Tuna’s deadly mate
Mark: “where as Bruce did and failed? “
Oh, boy – we’re going round in circles again! 😉
*You* say he’s failed – I don’t! For me it’s all a question of what will have been accomplished by November. If he’s failed at that point *then* I’ll say he’s failed. For me it’s premature to say otherwise as I don’t think we can judge much to-date.
As I have inferred, I think we’re comparing him with Wagner in dissimilar situations.
Mark: “I think you are totally overblowing the villas troubles”
Well, we clearly see the matter differently. Vive la difference! 😉
For me I think there are many subtle issues that we haven’t appreciated and that (therefore) it’s not a black-and-white situation at VP.
It amazes me that Wagner finds time to manage Hudders as well as writing all that music.
And it’s also good to know that the whole of AVFC is in such a complete and total mess that none of us should waste any money on season tickets.
Hey-ho, your newly married oldvilla …….
Congratulations OV! 😀
That’s some good news at least!
Thanks JL, appreciated. An absolutely incredible wedding and friends from around the world turned up.
Obviously the only downside to the last few days is to hear how bad everything is at VP. How come no-one has done anything about it though? I thought we had a good management team in place now, but they don’t seem to have noticed!
Yours with tongue firmly in cheek, oldvilla
Congrats old Villa nothing like a good knees up.
Deadly serious about the cliques at Villa, I have worked at enough jobs to know that the management rarely know whats going on at shop floor level, but if lets say your are just staff then you get to see hear and observe plenty that would be hidden when management come around the corner. Steve Bruce quite likely does not have the ear of many of the players it appears and the Jan transfers seem to have caused more division not less.
JL- So being brought in as the promotion specialist to get to the play offs then given carte Blanche to buy and sell players to achieve same and getting 13th is success now? oh boy. There is no way Bruce was brought in initially to see out the season and rebuild for next, the fact is he failed. That brought on much talk of stability when the team bombed in Feb as much egg was on faces and money spent. The only reason you get to say he hasn’t is because to sack him at this point would look very unprofessional with two managers rebuilds on the books and no team. If the remit was not play offs then why sell our strikers and bring in another while our players were in Africa? might as well waited until the summer. To you its circles to me its the unspoken truth 😉
On Villa’s troubles, if several managers in this league can buy in 15 players each and sell similar and hit the play offs or promotion its very possible to do, but not at Villa though we are special we only but nutters.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/championship/10826050/How-often-do-relegated-Premier-League-clubs-bounce-straight-back-from-the-Championship.html
Mark: “There is no way Bruce was brought in initially to see out the season and rebuild for next”
Yes, I pretty well agree! So who are you arguing with?!
You accuse me of all kinds of things, but I’m getting used to it! 😉
But that he didn’t succeed is not necessarily down to him (Bruce). Maybe the Doc simply expected too much and didn’t fully understand the situation.
Anyhow, as far as Chinese Whispers are concerned, I don’t go in for that. I’m just happy to see how it all starts in August…
Anyway, back to OV …
OldVilla, was there any special Swiss dish supplied at the reception?
Did you have to yodel?!
JL- you dodge better than Cassius clay mate 😉
“*You* say he’s failed – I don’t! For me it’s all a question of what will have been accomplished by November.”
JL- what was down to him? you seem to cut him a lot of slack, even when he rebuilt the team its not down to him? I give up.
They are not whispers Jl its happening, the information is sound. Can Bruce unite them by August? hasn’t so far it appears so I remain unconvinced. And the accusing goes both ways I think 🙂
On paper we really should win this league even the betting has us as favourites.
https://m.skybet.com/football/sky-bet-championship/event/20597365
JL – “Anyway, back to OV …
OldVilla, was there any special Swiss dish supplied at the reception?
Did you have to yodel?!”
Thanks for asking 🙂
Nothing too specially Swiss – the main was veal with spatzli and a few veggies …….. super buffet to start with ………….. and a great dessert buffet followed by local cheeses. Plus some super wine picked by moi … A 2007 Primitivo (Italian!) BTW we nipped across to Germany for the reception – great food at much more reasonable prices.
No yodelling, but I did remind the Swiss that they bottled it during the war during my speech lol …..
MK – I ran my own business for 25 years and have worked both at shop floor and managerial levels. All I can say is that if this blog can hear things about the team which are supposedly affecting the well being of players/team, but the current managerial team havent got wind of it then they should all be sacked along with the ‘rubbish’ players listed on this blog ad nauseum ……
But that may well mean that there is absolutely no-one left at VP to start the season …..
Your in wonderment, oldvilla
some strange stories on face book about kodja going to turkey , and if they are true wynes and round don t let door hit youse on way out
OV,
No mention of Schnapps…. mmmmm….
Anyway, any mention of continental cheeses and I’m all agog!
Sounds good.
James,
Villa have said that if Codger does go then it will have to be some by big-big wad of dough that will take him – nothing less.
I imagine that all the agent is doing is finding out what Codger’s really worth to work out what might happen next year when Villa have been promoted.
MK,
Wish I had the confidence of the Sky Bet people, but it will not be long before those odds move out, unless something drastic happens at VP.
I already have the feeling that Xia thinks he has failed at VP, and will be cutting back on his involvement. He will spend more time working on his business interests that involve Villa, and will be looking to recoup money from Bodymoor Heath as HS2 develops.
OV,
My aunt was married to a Swiss – he was a master confectioner at Kunzles in Birmingham.
Thankfully he’s not here now to take accusations of his country having ‘bottled it in the War – he never took British citizenship and had to go back there to serve his country throughout the war – just in case of invasion. A growing family minus their dad.
Kodjia
You may have seen reports coming out of Turkey today that Super Lig giants Fenerbahce are close to a loan deal for Aston Villa asset Jonathan Kodjia.
A LOAN deal. Yeah, right.
It’d take an enormous amount of money for the claret and blues to part with their top scorer from last season on a permanent basis, never mind a temporary one.
And so, as always, supporters flag up such lines to owner Dr Tony Xia.
“Please rubbish this now before people starting believing it.”
And, as ever, despite not being at 100% after recently going under the knife, he responded.
“Really feeling tired to clear all those rumors especially still recovering from surgery.”
Kodjia, 27, scored 19 goals for Villa in his maiden campaign at the club last season, and 22 in total for club and country – he doesn’t appear likely to be going anywhere anytime soon.
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/aston-villa-transfers-kodjia-fenerbahce-13120286
Even the Doc doesn’t like Chinese Whispers! 😀
JL – you know I talk in a very tongue in cheek manner …………… your Uncle did the right thing in doing what he did. BUT Switzerland was never going to get involved in the dirty side of the war where many familes lost their Uncles, Fathers, Sons etc – lets not forget that the Swiss (who I love as my new home with their droll humour and high quality of life) made money out of the war whilst others suffered. The main reason for not being invaded by Herr Hitler was that so much Nazi money/gold and stolen goods was stored – at high interest rates – on behalf of the German nation.
I don’t blame the Swiss at all – good luck to them for having the nouse to stay out of the killing zone whilst others died for their countries, but if everyone had taken that stance, the world would look very different these days.
oldvilla
OV- Don’t want to say to much as I’m sure any talk will be frowned on and questions asked but he works with the players.
Mark
Having been a boss & a worker [mostly], I heartily concur with Old Villa [may his valuables never rattle & congrats etc], & as far as success is concerned it’s all relative [not mine].
From one perspective not only didn’t we get promoted, failure if that was the 100% realistic aim, but didn’t win the National either, success as we aren’t a horse.
You may think you have the scoop of the century[success], but you may not[failure].
Time will tell!
As it will about the Moose after the season starts.
We can’t turn the clock back to the halcyon days by having a grump, otherwise we’d be world champions already.
JL,OV, IanG- I am reporting this info to you all because your villa fans, I take no delight in it, its quite damning, its information I have come across from a good source, choose to believe or disbelieve as you will. I will say I have never met so many experts in other peoples information and their validity in my life and believers in the Villa’s management who may or may not realise the state of affairs (even after the pretty average performance by them so far) 😉
JC is the only one who looked at the potential effects of this last and next season, a couple of cliques is bad enough we saw that the last season in the prem but four distinct cliques now and a very dodgy fitness/injury system thats a mess. If I find out more I will keep it to myself in future, no news is good news 🙂
OV,
No nastertions (!) meant about my uncle and the Swiss, and understand what you’re saying.
Yes, I happen to know quite a bit about the workings of Swiss banks through another channel/activity, but Mum’s The Word on that one.
Mark,
I’m sure you don’t mean to be causing harm by your inferences, mate, but rumours are always a danger – good source or not.
We can only wait to see what happens on the pitch.
was paddy riley still employed by the club last summer, think back to delph gana contracts,
How long will it be before we can see any real positivity return here, or anywhere connected with the club. It seems at the moment, the most positive is JL, saying wait and see, and give Bruce until Xmas to prove himself.
This should be a time when we are all getting excited about the advent of a new season, with players returning from injury, some players going, and some really exciting new signings coming in.
We should be looking forward to some exciting pre-season friendlies against some interesting opposition, not playing the likes of Kidderminster and Walsall. Next it will be playing Forrest Green and Tamworth. How far have we really fallen in the last year.
It is now almost unimaginable that less than two years ago , we were playing Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs. Now we look forward to playing Millwall and Bolton. We talk about buying players out of contract and from Lincoln City, spending around a £1million or so for an exciting prospect. This does not mean to say that we should be dealing in huge money deals, because money does not necessarily buy success, but where is the buzz to encourage the fan????
Paul,
On the pre-season matter, Villa are involved in a mini-tournament in mid-July, in Germany.
Signings? Well, we’ve already heard that only a million is in the kitty so any purchases have to be mainly provided by sales. Since no actual sales take place for another month, it’s a bit early to see what might happen.
Aside from which, it is being said that only 2 or 3 new players are needed, and I rather go with that. We can’t keep changing over the squad and some of the youngsters are pretty well ready to come through.
The “buzz to encourage fans” is only through the chance of promotion this season, I suggest! That’s surely an aspiration that can keep us going?
JL- I don’t mean to cause any distress but what harm exactly am I causing? as for rumours? pretty specific for rumours. All I am saying is it has been pretty much brushed off as not true, of course it will out in time or maybe not as we still don’t know what actually went on under Mon let alone now. I wish I’d been told they are all in love with each other and raring to go, would make life easier wouldn’t it.
Quite worrying that the players have been asked to pay for their own rehab on its own.
PP. maybe other teams don’t see us as worth playing or Maybe Bruce wants to get us on the front foot against lower opposition, I don’t suppose parking the bus against better teams would serve us at this point. Could be worth it for the extra money but to be fair we haven’t played many top teams in recent years pre-season either. It does feel a little underwhelming after last seasons boasts of top 6 europe etc.
wonder how the docs coming along after his heart surgery, can’t imagine he will have much involvement for a while.
MK – “OV- Don’t want to say to much as I’m sure any talk will be frowned on and questions asked but he works with the players.”
If he works with the players, then he must work with or for the club? Why doesn’t he report what he is finding as it seems to be quite obstructive to Villa progressing as we would all like.
And understand that you wouldn’t want to say too much ……
oldvilla
JL – “No nastertions (!) meant about my uncle and the Swiss, and understand what you’re saying.”
No problems John and I think some of the more ‘modern’ Swiss are sometimes a bit embarrassed about their actions during the war.
On other matters such as the friendlies that have been arranged – I find them a bit underwhelming to be honest, but shouldn’t we accept that maybe the club know better than us and let them get on with things without causing ourselves so much angst? It seems like absolutely every breath the club takes is put under the microscope – but maybe thats just the joys of social media……..
And other matters yet again – Colin Abbott’s new book of the AVFC 70’s turned up here in Switzerland today. Looks impressive and maybe my new wife will have grounds for divorce soon as it may keep me occupied for several weeks 🙂
oldvilla
OV- he may have he works with SB too but more likely not as he has to work with them all tough site if it’s your living
Site= situ
Mark
Im not sticking up or defending bruce.
The facts for me is he will be gone if he doesn’t deliver by next Christmas. Talk of unhappy team…hmmm did not see it myself on the pitch especially last game of season.
Like I say next season all will be revealed! im pretty clam about it all just seeing what unravels.
Others seemed to place a lot of truck with the rumours that RDM wasn’t bothered in the dressing room or training pitch but dismiss the rumours that Mark has confided, seems to be somewhat of a double standard which I’m sure will be batted away.
If true then it’s a damning indictment of the current management not just Bruce to allow the situation to occur/continue
andrew- players in congratulating each other on a pitch shock horror 😉
DOR- feels that way doesn’t it 🙂
Always thought it would take someone to inspire and galvanise the team at Villa to heal the wounds, I don’t think just discipline and admonishment is enough . That’s why I like Wagner I suppose, apart from the obvious intelligence, tactics, attention to detail and coaching all his players talk about his inspirational qualities and what he does to make them believe they are winners, The pre-season week long survival bonding trip for instance and the personalised wrist bands he had made for the play off’s for every player. Does Steve Bruce have that quality? he seems amiable enough and angry a lot but over his career he seems more concerned with how Steve Bruce looks to me.
Perhaps, what should happen at Villa Park, is the walls and corridors should be wiped clean of its history, except for the last 60 years, which the fans have heard or seen, and the rest cosigned to an in-house museum. Then the club could proclaim a new beginning, without being over-shadowed by the ghosts of the past.
I had a similar feeling in a club the other day, which is dying from the old traditions, and all the walls hung with past presidents and chairmen.
Let us start with the present and fight for anew future….!!!
Darren
Re rdm
My main beef with rdm was not learning his stupid mistakes. How many times were we winning with mins left and still opted to leave 5 st on the pitch!
Re the apparent unrest amongst the team. the wages thing every team in every land talks about it and has done for years so nothing there. And like I say the team on the pitch look ok and off the pitch the players are doing more in the community than ever. but to be honest its all a load of bs.
end of day we are going to have to have results else thete will be change. like I said calm about everything, lets see where we are at chrimbo
been reading the secret footballer books. really makes me more divided and distant from the players. They are all in it for themselves and the money. some of the storys he comes out with our shocking!!
Most of them smoke and are taking cocaine! just far to much money about. need the tv money to burst and get the game back to some reality!
I think Gregory and ian taylor have eluded to the players knowing bruce is in charge. has taken a strong stance with the like of bacuna, McCormack who were running amock under rdm. keith has said a few times this is the case and under rdm there was no strong management. I belive that’s the case.
Mark re wagner. I have read all the storys and makes me laugh, I think Warnock or steve coppel said he was doing all that bonding stuff in the 80s! he aint invented the wheel!
Andrew- never said he had but he is using it and thats the point.
lets go ten games in and nothings changed, what then? another manager with a split and unmotivated squad thats what, you might be glad of someone who can inspire a team not scare them to death then
Anyone seen us connected with those 3-4 prem level players yet? 🙂
I see we are looking at two league 2 players, no bad thing if they can do the business, they are being watched by prem clubs though. Just seems that an awful lot is depending on who we can shift and apart from Vertout I cannot see many clubs beating our doors down. Wyness has said we have money but will they risk still having the surplus players on the wage bill and buy early? or will Bruce be forced to use them?or have like last season very late arrivals with no pre-season?
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/transfer-news-aston-villas-talent-13121047
andrew
rdm had 4months plus dozen games, a couple fluke keeper kicking erros, woodwork battered and we wouldnt noticed subs
bruce has had 36 games bar 1st match v brighton half match v pne which we still threw away absolute nothing to say it will change come august
what has wynes done to get banned,
JG
He retweeted a vid with ‘the ref is disabled’ on the bottom, or words to that effect.
He says he didn’t see it when he retweeted it.
They went dracocian & fined him 10 grand & banned him for a month.
I’m wondering what he was banned from?
went draconian & banned him for 3 weeks.
What from exactly?
There always has and always will be cliques at clubs. There will be one for the guys that came in last summer, as they would not have had time to move house and family to the area, so they tend to go for a round of golf and a pint after training. The same thing with the new guys coming in at Christmas, its only natural not a conspiracy. And as for management not knowing, of course they do, just that good managers will join each group every now and then for a pint and a round of golf. That’s half the point of preseason, to get the players to bond kicking around a ball on the sand and having a bit of fun together. There were rumors back in the day that Andy Gray, Brian Little and John Gidman didn’t get on, who cares, they were great in one of the best claret and blue teams of post war years.
Canadian Villa- who cares about any of it feck it all 😉
Canada,
Absolutely!
harmless those cliques like the ones under Sherwood 😉
You don’t need to be great mates to do a great job.
the fa hate us. always wanting to fine us for nowt.
Think if there is a massive problem with team spirit or cliques it would be on twitter. Not heard a sniff and some who I follow are always spot on.
but yeah like lana says most squads have cliques. remember sheringham and cole never even talked to each other!
the new kits have been leaked..look very nice.
All black away one which looks sweet.
suppose the players are on there holls now in Dubai or wherever they go! should see some outgoings pretty soon though. Gill could be a hard one to shift.
Andrew
I think they’re nice, fashionable. Great kit.
surprised that quite a few view cliques are par for the course and ok, I am not talking about people who are just mates or someone just plain not liking someone, I’m talking about groups that get together because they feel excluded, Can’t be a good thing to be telling other players Bruce is getting rid of you etc.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/england/11690966/England-team-was-divided-and-riddled-with-cliques-claims-Craig-Kieswetter.html
THE PLAGUE OF CLIQUES
Some Problematic Programs are the result of cliques, where the team spends more time competing with each other than they do their opponents. Keep in mind that sub-groups naturally develop on most teams based on common interests, year in school, similar backgrounds, etc. These sub-groups are normal on teams as long as they peacefully coexist with each other. Problematic cliques occur when one sub-group intentionally excludes, belittles, undermines, and/or becomes hostile toward another sub-group. Cliques destroy trust and team chemistry because they put their smaller sub-group’s interest ahead of the whole team’s interest. Many Problematic Programs are the result of corrosive cliques between the upperclass athletes and the younger athletes. Or divisions can form when the offense blames the defense for the team’s failures.
http://www.janssensportsleadership.com/resources/janssen-blog/the-10-plagues-of-a-problematic-program/
I think there always has been cliques in footy. its nigh on impossible to get a squad of 22 odd young millionaires to all get along. especially now you have mostly foreign guys who cant even speak English!
Its fine if on the pitch they all give 100% the trouble is if it proper turns poisonous and the buggers down tools. see villa last 4 years!!!
MK – this cliques thing. I dunno who your mate is who is telling you these things but my view is that he needs to let people within VP know about it as this blog seems to be saying that no-one is aware of it going on or does nothing. If he doesn’t let anyone know then he needs a smack mate – this is OUR club and here we have someone who is ‘happy’ to let this fester away and therefore affect the team and it’s future.
Maybe even leak the info? UNless he isn’t as in the know as he makes out to you?
oldvilla
OV- He’s the son of a chap I know who is also a villa fan, I haven’t spoken to the son to ask so maybe he talks about it to Bruce maybe not, I can totally see why he wouldn’t its his Job and he has to work with everyone . Surely there are players that could flag it up too? whichever way I’m told the team spirit is pretty much Zero.
As I said previously elphick is the one that tries to bring it all together but gets ignored
theres only one thing to do to clear it up. im tweeting the doc and wyness. get it out on twitter
apparently we have signed the bloke Vegard Forren on a free
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39201590
Andrew- Wyness is banned for 3 weeks for abusing refs on Twitter 🙂
Andrew – do it mate. Get it out there and then it can get cleared up.
MK – I can’t go with this “its his job” stuff. Its also his job to get the best out of the team which he obviously isnt. Its my club and I dont want it destroyed further than it has been under Lerner. If he hasnt got the balls to sort out issues like this that have such far reaching effects then he shouldnt be in that job.
Just my POV………..
oldvilla
OV- You don’t even know what he does mate and as you said the management will be aware of it if not what use are they? nobody likes a snitch
In other words he’s not management let them sort along with the overpaid children we have employed
MK
This is becoming more like something to do for the sake of it based on an unconfirmed maybe.
To go back to the original post of your’s, it may very well be the case that cliques exist, & as Canadian V said, nothing new there.
What bothers me is everyone’s predilection for running with it in a myriad of directions then having an argument.
Your original post with the information is fine & something we can keep an eye on to see if it is a problem in the future, or indeed if it has any legs at all.
I don’t honestly see the point in using a rumour to back up my biases, but I do appreciate the info Mark.
For the record I have never said that I think Bruce was a good idea, & this is the third time I’ve said so.
I also don’t think sacking him at present would be helpful unless a better replacement has been sourced, & all the talk from VP has been that he is staying.
If that is the case we will find out very quickly where the team are going under him once the new season commences.
I am also concerned about the cause of apparent negativity in our club still being there [if indeed that is the case], or whether it is confusion because it is changing, that pulls everyone’s chain.
IanG trouble is mate confirmed by Whom the management? I am beginning to wish I had kept it to myself to be honest or not heard. Since when has anyone had 100% verified info on here though?
I was genuinely shocked by what I was told but it did go with what’s been seen at times this season, may explain Bruces frustration with players not following instruction, been told he is really pissed off with injuries etc and a few ultimatums have been thrown around.
If its all genuine and I have little reason to disbelieve it isn’t (why say it for one?)then with RMC back it will be a real laugh. I am more concerned that a second manager may not have got to the bottom of it all or that’s its worse, its like waiting for the plane to crash
Mark,
You’ve said that your source is ‘not management’., and that doesn’t surprise me.
I think we’ll probably find that what he seems to be intimating exists in a lot of places – reflecting the nature of player power, perhaps? Or rather the ego that ties in with that?
But, as Canada suggests, I’m not fussed with what’s going on unless it really is serious (is it?) and it affects what’s on the pitch, and if we’re not showing anything worth showing by October then it may then be something to start worrying about.
There’s an old piece of wisdom that says that if it’s out of your control, don’t try to fix it. 😉
Mk
It could be mate, but not unusual as Canadian said, & as others have also said, it has happened in the best teams without affecting the results.
If it is true & affecting the squad badly, it would show up more if we’re not doing well.
Well we will see how it all balances out in the mix.
It will be interesting to see who goes in the light of what you posted
Afternoon each,
I think the reality is SB is not on his own, he has his coaching staff who work with the players. If we’re saying SB is unaware of divisions or cliques within the squad then it would suggest Sterve Bruce has no dialoge or support from his coaching staff. I find that hard to believe. There’s going to be members of the squad who know the’re leaving, ther’e the ones who are most likely sending out the wrong messages.
Anyway there’s nobody at the club at the moment, they dont return the first or second week in July…doh!
mk
is forren the bloke that signed for brighton and soton without playing
JG
Thats the guy
Archie- I don’t know if Bruce knows or not only that I have been told they exist, makes me wonder how long if the new boys have formed one.
and If it is just groups of friends why mention it all? just saying it wasn’t said as a positive
JG yes mate rumour is will be announced in a couple of days who knows eh other than we are skint 😉
I see the British & Irish Lions won their first game in NZ-just. I think they’ll win a test, too. Most people here think they’ll lose all their games against Super18 sides. If they do, but win the series against the All Blacks, they’ll go down as legends.
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