Villa Set To Storm Up the Table
Okay, maybe not. Yes, we got a vital win and even by the scoreline I was too hesitant to put in print. But though I am a pragmatist, the West Ham match was one of the most underwhelming overall displays I’ve seen in some time, especially given that it was a win, and a crucial one.
Rest assured, I’m as happy as anyone with the points and the rare sight of Villa hanging on. And I do believe in what I say about it just being about survival, however ugly.
But I was a bit surprised at how no one really stood out for me. And maybe that was a good sign. There’ve been other games with much better passages of play and goals and bigger individual performances where we came up empty handed or with less than we would’ve expected. Facing a side like the Hammers and a manager like Big Sam, perhaps it was always going to be a scrappy and disjointed affair.
At the same time, no one was woeful. And thank god Brad Guzan stayed focused for 94 minutes and change. His reaction at the end said it all.
What I’m going to take away from the game is that Villa finally survived an aerial assault with only a self-inflicted head wound to show for it. And Charles N’Zogbia scored and earned a penalty. We need you, Chuck. Keep it up.
The other bits, well, Jordan Bowery did well enough, all things considered, and I can understand his inclusion in Gabby’s stead for the sake of size and physicality. The same for choosing Baker at left back. Dawkins looks lively. The team as a whole were scrappy and combative, even if we were naive and timid down the final stretch. Westwood was unlucky, and Delph seems much more comfortable playing further up the pitch, though he still managed to be involved at both ends. There’s a decent footballer in there if he can build on those sorts of performances. And find more consistency in his first touch.
The other thing that’s interesting is seeing Lambert’s squad choices over time, insofar as he generally seems to like letting a given selection have a run of a few games. We’ve not seen a lot of chopping and changing, but we have seen more deliberate rotations.
I think it’s become clear that however we might be labeling it, a 4-3-3/4-4-2 is probably the side’s best formation as a default, instead of the 3-5-2. Despite his glaring miss, Andi Weimann will still be important. Charles N’Zogbia is starting to make a difference. Benteke remains influential when he’s not at his best. Darren Bent…He’s still a luxury, but I will thank him for being in the right place to make a vital intervention.
I do think the side needs Gabby just for the pace and work rate out wide. Like someone said yesterday, it really is the case that Weimann, Gabby and CNZ should be fighting to play alongside Benteke.
In the middle, I would agree with the emerging consensus that names Sylla, Westwood and Delph, even though I still know next to nothing about Sylla. I’ve long hoped Stephen Ireland would find a consistent place and consistent form, but it doesn’t look like it’s happening this season, and he’s been noticeably absent of late. He is the most creative passer we have, but it doesn’t appear Lambert sees him fitting into this squad, and he probably is out of place alongside the sorts of players we have.
At the back, while Baker isn’t a long-term answer on the left, putting him in there does give the side some of the height and brawn it needs. He gave himself quite a knock butting heads with Carroll, but he kept right at it, and did a job. Blood streaming down his face, he was fully committed and proved a good example.
As we fight through this final third of the season it remains clear that what the side lacks more than anything are composure and confidence. Perhaps the win will help with both. Long term, they’re the sort of things that should end up taking care of themselves if Villa do avoid the drop.
More experience and familiarity (and less pressure) lead to more composure, which generally means holding onto more leads and seeing out more games, which means more results, which in turn boosts confidence and nurtures composure. It’s just that a side this young and inexperienced at this level needs some sort of place to start from. They’d appeared to have found that stepping off point at Anfield before the Chelsea debacle. But that turned out to be another in a series of false dawns during these last three seasons.
So here’s hoping the upward trajectory was rediscovered on Sunday, even if it was a strange match overall, and that the two upcoming games don’t undermine what was accomplished.
What I’d like to see, besides stealing unexpected points, are feisty, combative matches that build confidence by refusing to let either Arsenal or City dominate and toy with Villa. Two close, hard-fought games are what we need, whichever way they finish.
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Hello John,
Everyone at the club needed that win on Sunday, you could feel the tension building up during the week even among the fans, don’t know about Lerner and Chubby, they probably didn’t know their was a game on.
At least we have options in most positions now that most of the squad is fit.
Won’t knock a tryer but for the life of me i can’t understand the Bowery/Bent farce, it smacks of the same personality clash as the Lambert/Carruthers business, Lambert should put the team over any petty differences, i’m finding him increasingly irritating with his dogmatic approach.
You wonder where Ireland is?….Looks like hes the next player to be frozen out:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/aston-villa/9863551/Aston-Villa-midfielder-Stephen-Ireland-frozen-out-by-manager-Paul-Lambert.html
Morning Lifers,and you Goebbels
An interesting perspective on the win John.
As I write this at the Carnival in Rio-maybe I`ve had too much alcohol or too much sun,but I started to think about some of the hostility toward your namesake in our defence.
Personally I think Clark is a good player who is or has been playing badly.My theory is we`ve all said,X,Y.Z are cr*p,he`s awful,he`s the worst player I`ve seen in a Villa shirt(well they haven`t seen me play).So in a half arsed cack handed way I`m trying to say is that good players can play badly,sometimes for several consecutive games.Whilst bad or poor players just play badly although they occasionally play a blinder once in a while when the footballing gods smile on them.
Clark has been poor imo due to several factors,inexperience,poor decision making(partly due to the former)playing in a weak side,little protection from MF,lack of confidence-both individually and collectively etc etc..If you are having a cr*p few months,you just can`t hide in defence,you just have to tough it out,as you say over there in Goebbelsland.
So next time we or I say,Christ X is cr*p,think about it.Is he cr*p or is it a decent player just playing cr*p?
Anyway,it was just a thought a I sip another cold one at the Copacabana-I feel a song coming on-sorry to sway off topic,and if I`m writing cr*p,I await the abuse.
Have a splendid morning,and I bid you all good day.
COYVB.
Steamer,
I agree with your stance on Lambert, to say he is stubborn is an understatement . I cannot for the life of me think why Bowery should get the nod over Bent, as soon as he came on the hammers defence were drawn all over the place as they knew they had 2 top strikers to contend with, Bowery did not have the same presence and was even playing wide right for long periods, he has no pace and was seriously out of his depth. Now he has frozen out Ireland, who in fairness has been a misnomer since Faulkner signed him, no manager has wanted him and he didn’t even wanna come, unfortunately he still has 18mnths left on his deal and I can’t see this is the best course of action to get the best out of him or even to get rid of him.
Bloody Albion won last night and now I’m back at West Brom the office banter is flying already, and I’m already trying to fend the day off where I have to pay up all the bets.
Supporting Villa in recent times has been a turgid dreary affair with very little light at the end of the summer. We simply have to stay up and pray for a miracle in the summer.
B62… The Bowery over Bent is one that is going to puzzle people… the simple way of looking at it is you have a choice of Bent or Benteke as a centre striker… I don;t think anyone would choose Bent over Benteke… than you are loooking for player to flank him. Get in the box, but work back and you have a choice of Bowery or Bent… now which one would you trust to do the job? Not just the attacking half of the job. Yes Bent made a goal line clearance… but it was from a corner… he was already forced to come back to defend… Bowery sprant 40/50 yards to get back an defend and worked harder in one game than I think i’ve seen Bent work through the entire season.
Do I think he has the quality on that showing? No… but give me the choice of picking Bent or Bowery again to flank Benteke and I’d go with Bowery… However I do feel Bowery in that role was a one off to combat WHU’s “physical nature” (I put i nicely)…
The season is going to be scrappy and a fight… anyone who thinks we’re going to delightfully play our way out of this should overt their eyes now… this is going to be horrible viewing mostly… but their are now a few more positives coming out of the team..
A major factor in Sunday though was the fact we went man for man on set peices and had two spare men on the posts… We have been marking their biggest threat and defending zonally but that changed a week or two ago and it’s now starting to plug the dead ball threats. Baker helped this too… as I say Wenger would love to have a young CB like Baker to mould.
As for Ireland… well i’ve given up on him even showing up in a Villa shirt…
He’s gone… and fingers crossed Dunne and Given are too…
Think about it them three out effectively saves 175k a week…. scarey…. Add bent to that… £260k a week?
And they’re not playing!!! get rid and buy Ronaldo… I’d happily pay him £260k a week… lol
It’s massive money that i’m sure we’ll see far better spent next season.
B6 Iv always rated Clark too, and he has been a liability for most of this season but after second half against Everton, playing for Ireland and against West Ham he seems much more confident and adept. He still makes rash decisions like rushing out of defence to knick the ball or holding onto the opposition striker but hopefully he can kick on and extend this run of form.
I think all fans have that certain player when you see their name on the team sheet it makes your blood boil, doesnt matter how well he’s played in specific games or a run of games. You just think the guy is useless and he’s taking up a spot that would be better utilised by someone else. Case in point: Frem and Gabby.
Myself used to be Heskey, turned to Collins now its Herd/Albrighton. Albrighton is a shame cos he started his career so well at Villa, but everytime i see him now he does less than nothing. Herd just does not know how to use a ball. Some people would have it in for Clark.
That player could turn into Bowery for me if he keeps getting picked because I would pick Bent over him all day long. The only advantage Bowery has over him is his work rate thats it. For me thats no substitute for talent, and I know your mind has to be right too no point playing someone who aint interested. This has been Lamberts major failing in my eyes, the way he has mis handled Bent. I couldnt believe some of the games earlier on in the season he put Bowery on the bench ahead of Bent leaving him out of the squad altogether. Thats a £24million striker whos fit that your leaving out the squad. Thats a former England striker who would have gone to the Euros if he didnt get injured and would probably be in the squad now if he was starting enough games and scoring. Thats a striker who has averaged a goal every 2 games throughout his WHOLE career. Sure if you think Benteke on his own is better than Bent then fine but you cant tell me Bowery is a better option.
I understand why he picked Bowery, he was set to go with Gabby and Gabby got ill and he didnt want to change the system plus Bowery would put in the effort. That also just stinks of a lack of plan B to me. Plan A didnt work/couldn happen so what do we do now? We stick to a modified plan A. That has been another of Lamberts failings particularly in games which were going away from us, he cudn affect it from the bench with a plan B. Luckily the fact that he left Bent out meant that there was a Plan B on the bench and that turned the game for us.
Not bothered about ireland or DB not playing. they will be gone in the summer, as will given and dunne. with DB its like playing with 10 men. AW and benteke up top over DB any day. one player which is sad lambert isn’t using is carruthers who has great potential but will be gone soon as well
Graham that money is going nowhere but to balance the books, we will get the turnover to wages ration somewhere near the 50% – 60% mark and keep it there. Lerner aint interested in moving on anymore he just wants rid and hopefully sooner rather than later. First things first we need to stay in the premiership, but then he may loosen the purse strings a lil in terms of wages if we get that £260k off the books, just enough that we can buy premiership quality players rather than lower leagues.
The 2010/11 accounts were released end of this month last yr will be interesting to see what the 2011/12 will say this yr. Last yr was a £54 mill loss not taking into account the sales of Ash or Downing. The wages to turnover was £83.4m : £92m or 90.6%. These accounts should be lower with Carew/Beye off the books and next yr even more so with Warnock/Collins/Cuellar/Heskey off the books. Thrown in the £260k/wk which is £13.5m a yr for next season, as well as the increased £30m television revenue and we will be looking health financially at least if not from a footballing perspective.
Make that Frem: Gabby and DB!
Id have to disagree with you on that Frem. I rate Weimann and he may be a better foil for Benteke, but ask me who would I rather go with in a run in to avoid relegation, a proven premiership goal scorer or a relative novice who lets his head drop after a mistake and I would go with Bent all day long.
Darren Bent does what he does best, he scores goals. He is not there to track back. He aint the hardest working but to say he is as good as having nobody is ridiculous. And this idea that Carruthers would come in and be our savious is just a joke, he is a kid with potential. yeh I wuda liked to see him play more earlier in the season to see if he could cut it but now is not the time.
Frem your certainty that Carruthers is a star waiting to happen is impressive. Personally I rate Grealish and Graham higher but you are right… they are exactly the type of player we need.
Ball carriers, Creative, Pacey and full of confidence… but also very young and inexperienced and all still prone to silly mistakes… watch the reserve match from yesterday.. try and spot Carruthers defending… here a clue you won’t…
Players even more now a days days to be able and willing to get involved in both sides of the game…
Ree K,
Interesting comments about the finances, I think it was Matt who explained last year that most of our problems would be over with this seasons books, i honestly can’t see how the club can economise any more, except by sacking Chubby. Where all this money saved and the increased TV money ( assuming we stay up ), will go God knows, i suspect into Lerners bank account, but any debt to him will surely be wiped out and then he can f**k right off.
For Carruthers see also Dunne,Ireland etc.Somehow players who don`t play are suddenly incredible and will solve all our problems.Has Dunne got 5 years youngers and shed 17 kilos?Does Ireland look interested and suddenly wants to bust a gut for the club and earn his corn?Heard it and seeen it all bsefore.Get Bryan Small in he`s great in the reserves,get J Lloyd in he`s a great LB,gotta playHarry Forrester he`s amazing.
Having said that I don`t bracket Samir with those he may become a 1st teamer,but do you get my drift?
Do you/we really think a nerve wracking relegation battle is the right time to blood a yougster whose position is notorious for losing the ball?I`d hate to see him brought in and have his confidence crushed and subbed early.However do I want him to come on and be a sucess?Of course I do,but timing is everything.
Ree
You really must expand your posts,they are far too short.
Bowery,well I bow to your superior knowledge on him lads,as I`ve not seen him play.
What I will say though,is that we moaned and moaned about conceding from set plays and we brought on a big lump in Bowery to counter Wet Spam `s aerial threat,or to help counter this and it worked,and some are still complaining.I see the pro Bent argument too
Ree- AW will stand more of a chance of keeping us up than DB. he works hard, he hes quicker, hes better all round player and his finishing is just as good normally. we dont have young and downing anymore so DB is pretty useless to us, we dont have players who will give DB the ball on a plate anymore
FromB6toBrasil- i dont think anyone has said ireland and dunne will save us, nor carruthers but carruthers should have been used alot more. we aren’t exactly overloaded with creative players.
on bowery, we played the lad RM when hes a striker and the only other time he played was LM against ipswich and he actually looked decent. he suits LM better
B62B,
Thanks for the weather report from your side of the world, its barely 2 degrees where i am and i can tell you i am having the best of the weather in England as i sip another cup of soup.
The Bowery/Bent argument will rumble on as Villa fans we can always find something to moan about as we strive for perfection.
The three points were very welcome thats an understatement and the gamble just paId off for PL, although if WHam had got an equaliser we would have been asking all the questions, my view was Bowery was not ready for a game of this importance and although he worked hard which for me is the minimum requirement from a pro footballer he was not at this level.
We have a break to get all the players fit and ready before we go up the Arse, and it will be down to PL and his staff to come up with a game plan to take some points, we know how they play, we know we will not have a lot of the ball, so get two solid banks of four soak up the pressure and with CB,Gabby and CNZ hit them on the break, there might be a case to play DB as i think he has a decent record against Arsenal.
UTV
REE K
Those weekly salaries are frightening,particularly for players who don`t play.
I get the impression that once we get the payroll under control,as a percentage of turnover,then the purse strings will remain tightly shut.
Where is my evidence for this conclusion?Simply, the january window.Lambert was left with an MLS player and a french div 2 player,when we`ve been crying out for MF and defensive strenghtening.An old discussion,I know,but the january window was very revealing.If we stay up,any fans dreaming od Villa spending significantly again will be disappointed.Why?Wages not fees,we just can`t /won`t compete in that department anymore.
Drennan scored 3 last night, about to turn 19. our academy manager said he scores for fun. Burke, Carruthers and Grealish as well are talented but we wait until there about 21 before we ever use them, then at 22, 23 we use them alot and they struggle. we should do what pool do with sterling
I’m not sure about this ‘don’t put kids into a struggling team’ palava, kids today are more confident, Carruthers certainly is. The reserves are untainted by failure, stick ‘em in and see how they go, they can’t be worse than Holman, Bennett etc can they ?
Youth or younger players.Are they played-in general not at AVFC-because they are good or out of necessity?
Being specific to Aston Villa,it is firmly the later,we have such a small squad there is simply no one else to pick.
Marc A.,BB etc…could they even get on the bench at Stoke,Albion or Fulham?I think not,yet they have been regulars for us.Carruthers et al will get their chance next season when further wages are slashed and the squad numbers decline
A nice read John,
Really thought Lambert would fancy Ireland as he is the same as Hoolahan in many ways. Some turn around, supporters’ player of the year to no man’s land.
did anyone else watch special report on SSN last night about racism in footba??
millwall fans must be embarrassed and ashamed of them selfs. most the program was filmed about them.
they threw bottles at zoggy as well.
if i was shittu or any other black player who played for millwall after watching that, i would refuse to play
Frem,
The old Den was closed down SIX times and they still don’t boot the animals out of the league.
steamer:
A question as old as the hills…Is Lambert a stubborn and petty man who will be his own undoing (paging Martin O’Neill), or is he a man of confidence and conviction?
What we can seem to see, being generous from the outside, is that we know that workrate and presence rank very highly for Lambert, and when you see how hard teams close and pressure and work off the ball when playing us, you can understand why.
In the modern game, talent is no longer enough. Now, when you don’t have many choices, you’re stuck saying, “I’d rather have a Bowery out there who will at least work instead of a Bent, who won’t”.
Is that stubbornness or sheer pragmatism?
John,
Nice article.
The games may well get ugly as we progress and it will be par for the course if we are to survive.
As Graham said, if we are in the business of surviving, we just need to survive – anything else this season in terms of “looking good” is extraneous.
B6:
Yes, yes, and yes. That can be very much the case. CNZ is a good player. Ireland is a good player. Delph is a good player. And Clark, too.
For whatever reasons, some more obvious and understandable than others might be, we’re only just now seeing CNZ make a regular contribution that’s affecting outcomes, even though I’ve thought he generally always put in a shift, if not a telling one.
But I agree. Good players go through bad patches, especially the younger they are.
I keep coming back to this point, but this is the longest run at this level (or the first) virtually any of these players have gotten besides Gabby (and Bent, of course, has been around). Bannan, Delph, Weimann, Clark, Baker, even Guzan, they’ve all played bit parts for the last two or three years, and only just now are faced with the day-in, day-out, nowhere to hide reality of being counted on every week.
Given that most have never seen each side in the league once (Vlaar, Benteke, KEA, Westwood, Lowton, Bennett, Holman), nor played in the league a full season through, it’s understandable that things can look as odd as they do.
Up until a few matches ago, they’d only ever seen a Suarez or Aguero or Rooney or van Persie up close for the very first time.
The learning curve, both physical and mental that they’ve been on has been massive.
Graham:
Very much so. Bowery was horses for courses. For how little he moves, I don’t even think Bent really stretches a defense, despite the popular conception that he makes a lot of space.
Yes, he’ll get their attention, but he requires so much less effort to defend than a Benteke or Weimann, or a Gabby or CNZ, and offers nothing anywhere else on the pitch.
Bowery was at least another good-size body that could be counted on to work hard, challenge on set pieces, and generally just provide a presence who would cover the wide right space forward and back.
He wasn’t supposed to an alternative to Bent. He was an alternative to Gabby the winger.
And thinking back on the game, what did Bent really do when he came on? How many quality chances did Villa really have, especially of the sort Bent thrives on?
B62:
As you can see from my comment and Graham’s, I don’t think Bowery’s inclusion was a head-scratcher at all.
Never the same caliber as Bent. But Bent has lost out to Benteke in the only position Bent can play.
Really, think about Bent playing wide right. The English Channel comes to mind in terms of available space.
Rhee:
The Bent business is very simple. All the top strikers do so much more than Darren. He’s a throwback, a “goal hanger”, and while he can slot away the chances, you’re playing with 10 men for vast periods of the game.
He can’t come back and pick the ball up deep and carry it forward. He never starts a move, only finishes (if the move ever gets there and gives him the kind of service he requires). He can’t play as a holdup man. He just hangs on the shoulder and waits for a perfect ball to be threaded through to him.
It’s just not enough in this day and age, and that’s been Lambert’s point. I don’t think it’s egos, it’s simply that Lambert found a player every bit as lethal, with a much more complete game, who is only 22, cost a fraction of what Bent did, and makes so many more things happen.
Rhee:
When it comes to the wages/turnover ratio, think about Villa losing £50million-some pounds a year or two ago.
You can’t go forward when you’re subsidizing a team in an amount almost equal to its turnover.
There’s a growing buzz about the league doing more than FFP. Lerner may have cut too deep too quick (although that’s debatable since it’s been spread over three seasons now), but the vision of running at 70-80% of turnover….I don’t see how that’s anything but sensible.
What’s not sensible is the fact that running a club that way is undermined by the profligacy of a few who are spending and living well beyond their means.
For me, while you can say it’s lack of interest, or simply being cheap and make that argument, you can also make the argument that the goal (however well or poorly it’s implemented) is in the best interests of the club and represents calm stewardship rather than the ego-driven global multi-billionaire pissing contest the EPL has threatened to become.
That’s a game Randy can’t win, and knows it. More important, if he tries to play it, it would end up bankrupting him and destroying Villa.
The path we’re trying to go is ever so much more difficult, but necessary.
Totally off topic, but here is an article I was part of discussing the relegation scrap (alongside other blogs of other clubs around us) in case anyone is interested:
http://georgeweahscousin.com/2013/02/12/relegation-ramblings-the-oppositions-view/
B6:
“fromB6toBrasil02-12-2013
For Carruthers see also Dunne,Ireland etc.Somehow players who don`t play are suddenly incredible and will solve all our problems.Has Dunne got 5 years youngers and shed 17 kilos?Does Ireland look interested and suddenly wants to bust a gut for the club and earn his corn?Heard it and seeen it all bsefore.Get Bryan Small in he`s great in the reserves,get J Lloyd in he`s a great LB,gotta playHarry Forrester he`s amazing.
Having said that I don`t bracket Samir with those he may become a 1st teamer,but do you get my drift?”
Indeed. Remember the “put Kmac in charge and play the kids” campaign? “They can’t be any worse?
At least they care, they’re Villa, and play together? They rule the Reserve League?”
I respectfully submit that had we done that we’d have gone down faster and even more unceremoniously than Derby. The talent just wasn’t there, whatever we wanted to think.
PS I echo what John says above – the “Is Bowery better than Bent?” question misses the point as he was filling in for Gabby’s role, and not Bent’s abilities.
That’s the fundamentals of how you rotate a team right there – the roles are filled by players, rather than the team being dictated by who is the “best”.
Kind of the reason why England’s Golden Generation ended up being awful – individual talent with a garbage team structure.
Frem:
Agree 100% about Weimann. I didn’t rate him, but he runs himself into the ground, has been a great partner for Benteke, and has shown he really can finish, a couple howlers aside.
But Bent’s missed golden opportunities too, in his career, and quite famously.
Matt:
They will indeed be ugly, and that’s okay…It was just a funny kind of ugly against West Ham, especially going back and watching a replay, knowing the result.
John,
I think the argument for the reserves being great hinges on that one game we got a draw (after leading) against Manchester United when Houllier was in charge.
On the back of that game, we suddenly appeared (in the eyes of some) to have world beaters.
Fast forward just a few years and Villa lose 3-2 instead at home and, perhaps as predicted, the team gets lambasted.
If anyone wants evidence of the thin margins some opinions are based on mate, there is a fine example.
Matt:
And agreed, well put…Gabby has his limitations, and he’s an honest lad, doesn’t think he’s Drogba. He wants to play, and play for Villa, and he’s done whatever’s been asked of him.
Which has meant, since Bent arrived, playing a “role” instead of a given position.
John,
Agreed and, as Gabby always makes a point of making he would rather play wide for Villa than nowhere else.
Bent, on the other hand, prefers to play in the middle or nowhere else. Given Benteke’s emergence as our primary threat (we’ll all agree on that at least, right?), then one has to say that Bent is making himself less playable, be it in terms of flexibility or ability, than Gabby.
Every player in a team doesn’t have to be a world beater and, as you say above, Gabby knows he isn’t a Wayne Rooney or a Didier Drogba, but you can be damned sure he will give everything he has in his tank to win a game, whether it is sufficient or not.
That, my friend, is what I expect from players, and how you make a team rather than than the aforementioned collection of expensive players in the England setup in the past.
Put simply – if you, as a player, want to limit the places you are willing to play, then simple probability will dictate that you have less likelihood of playing, especially when the manager has personally signed a better, well rounded, cheaper, younger rival in the one slot/position you are aiming for.
I mean, come on, it ain’t exactly rocket science, is it?
Has Bent fallen out with Lambert? No.
Has Benteke proved to score more goals and offer more to the team than Bent? Yes.
Given that finances are an issue also, does Paul Lambert see more value in Bent’s wage (at £110k) or Benteke’s (at £25k)?
Based on all that, is the selection, when viewed as the manager – not as a fan – is the pick made so far from what everyone of us would be doing either? This when it is almost universally accepted that a) Weimann should play up front ahead of Bent due to his form and b) nobody is going to play a flat three centre forwards up front without support on the wings.
Which would lead to the question of where would that width come from – a fragile defence? Perhaps playing five in midfield? To which, on both counts, people have said “No” because they didn’t like 3-5-2, and they had concerns about Bennett and/or Lowton.
Which puts us back to a fact worked from that that one can not play more central strikers in central roles than picking who is best – Benteke.
http://www.herald.ie/sport/soccer/lambert-stands-by-dunne-29061172.html
Richard Dunne will be off the books at the end of the season. He may get offered another contract if the likes of the above article are to be believed.
Under what conditions would/should he get a new contract? He’s certainly not the future, could he be used in a reserve/back up role?
At his age and penchant for recurring injuries, I’d have him on 3k a week, something like that and he’d be required to stay below a certain weight. Actually, by all accounts, he’s got the weight down.
If he happens to be cleared medically, should he be allowed to play for the RoI next month? Trappatoni wants him playing.
The Bent debate will rage on and on and on. My point was not that I thought Bent was better suited for the role left vacant by Gabby’s illness, its obvious Bowery would do better than Bent in that role because he works harder. My point is shouldnt Lambert be looking to find a system that would accommodate Bent so that he plays in his best position, because I believe that given game time and opportunity Bent can score the goals that will keep us in the league. He will not be the best option against certain teams. But when we need firepower Id want Bent in that 11 ahead of Weiman ahead of Bowery. Lambert may have already burnt his bridges with Bent, but if he can get Bent motivated up for the fight then he will score important goals. More chance of that happening than relying on Weimann to pull something out the bag.
I see the split, half of us think hes a waste of space the other half think that he can score the goals we need. Iv always seen it with Villa fans way too much over the years, ppl dont appreciate the talent until its gone. In recent memory Young, Petrov, Barry. Its all well and good saying you want the team to bleed for the cause but without talent you will not get very far. We do not have any other player capable of doing what Nzogbia can do, there are very few in the whole league that are as talented as him yet we had fans wanting him out the club because he didnt perform under Mcleish. Who did? Given a chance and given the right circumstances to play in the talented players can create/score the goals to win you games. Nzogbia wants to play attacking football, ball to feet no 10 type free role, Lambert has accommodated him and now he is our saviour. Bent wants to play up front, on the last man, chances created for him or popping up in the box where the ball falls to him. If Lambert accommodated him he would flourish too.
I also feel its a bit of a double standard when it comes to Benteke. Yeh he has been collosal for us but he doesnt care about the Villa, a big team comes in for him and he’s off. He has shown signs of petulance, anyone see his reaction when Weimann missed his chance? Ray Wilkins made a good point in the sky commentary how everyone swamped Nzogbia when he scored but not Benteke, obviously not that popular with the players. It just leads me to think he thinks he’s bigger than the club. Might just be the petulance of youth but he hasnt even given one season to the club and theres rumours of him wanting out.
Soz about the long posts B62 im sure you must have trouble reading it through your carnival beer goggles!
Rhee:
“He has shown signs of petulance, anyone see his reaction when Weimann missed his chance?”
To me that just shows Benteke is a competitor, wants to win, knows how important those chances are, and simply couldn’t believe we’d just squandered as good an opportunity as we were ever going to get. That’s how I would’ve reacted, given the situation.
Matt if your asking me as a straight choice between Benteke and Bent as the central striker than i would pick Benteke all day long given his form and performances this season. However i do think that you can accommodate Bent and Benteke and Gabby and Nzogbia in the same team without taking away too much from their game. And that is a very dangerous attacking lineup. I would pick all 4 against Man U away but I would definitely for Fulham at home.
I think the Lambert Bent saga is mainly due to finances, Lerner has obviously told Lambert Bent and few other high wage earners are surplus to requirements this season, try to move them on. Because of this Lambert has alienated Bent and I feel that been done at a detriment to the club. The whole financial restrictions are a detriment to the club, Lerner could have spent money in january to get us to wembley and make our relegation battle easier to cope with but he chose not to gamble. Thats his prerogative as an owner but he’s taking a huge risk with our football club.
Yeh John, you can take it that way too. You can take it as will to win or you can take it as petulance. Both views are equally valid. I probably wuda reacted like that too. But its that couple with other instances that make me wonder. The point im making is Bent gets slated for earning a huge wage, that was negotiated by both parties, and not working hard enough on the pitch like he’s a mercenary. Benteke is making comments like he only sees Villa as a stepping stone, call me crazy but thats disrespecting the club. This club and Lambert took a chance on this virtually unknown Belgian striker playing in the Belgian league and he turns out to be a beast. We are the club that took a chance on him so he should show some loyalty to some extent. Its fine if the club doesnt match his ambitions after a couple yrs time we’ve all been through that before but not even a season gone? I think Benteke has been huge for us this season but I dont like some of the things Im seeing/hearing from him. If he saves us from relegation then I dont really care. Just something I noticed is all.
Ree,
The issue with Bent and Benteke playing together is we play 4-4-2 and then suffer from the issues that brings.
We are playing 4-3-3 variants at present, and Bent doesn’t fit them.
If we play 4-4-2, we have 4 against 5 in the middle and then get dominated due to the small midfield we have, we then end up with a pressured defence.
Pressure defence equals conceding pressure overall equals more mistakes equals more goals scored.
So we end up with a 4-5-1 variant (essentially the same as 4-3-3 with different positioning in certain phases of play (hence the hard working Bowery and Weimann in those cover roles) and it gives us the flex to attack and defend.
Bent in that role? Doesn’t work. Bent in 4-4-2, works to an extent but we have no natural width and have to concede a midfielder in a heavily acknowledged weak midfield that could cause us more issues.
Hence we have what we have. May not be the ideal, may not be what individuals want, but it is what it is and passes the logic test for me as to what Lambert is picking who he is in the formation he is using.
Another way of looking at it is if Bent and Ireland get sold, they pay the wage for seven Bentekes.
Simplistic, maybe, but it contributes to a great overall team quality vs what we have in terms of good players and bad players.
Rhee:
Oh, I agree, they’re all mercenaries, just like we are. Double or triple my wages? I’ll move on from anything.
Young, Milner, Barry, Downing…They all wanted out, and why not? More money, more success, better teams, more fame.
Matt and I, when we talk, you look at the wages of Bent and Ireland. You could sign multiple Bentekes for the same money. If we sell Benteke after one season for £25m, we can sign three players of his value for that money.
If you’re the manager, motivated self-interest tells you you can have a much better and deeper overall squad if you sell some high earners and replace them with better value.
I mean, Lerner, Bent is still being paid, and his value is only dropping for not being played and not scoring. If Lerner wanted to cash out, he’d be ordering Lambert to play him.
If Bent angles for a move, we have no leverage, and will never recoup the transfer fee, never mind the wages. So freezing him out….Lambert is going to pick the side that he thinks will make him look best over the long term.
The reports on Benteke aren’t first person quotes. they come in from an angle not straight forward. When I’m ticked at something and talk about it, it doesn’t mean I’m ready to chuck in the towel. Again, the media are rancid in Britain. constantly looking for injured pets on the side of the road so they can write a story and take pictures.
That said, if an out of the world offer showed up, Villa would be negligent not to review it and give it some thought.
Rhee.
Fair enough. if Benteke saves our season nobody cares about his ambitions. However, if what he’s been allegedly saying is true then he can go later, but that’s for the future. At the moment, he’s doing well by us.
Bent played well on Sunday within that setup. He still has an important role to play and it’s good to see him playing. We certainly can’t rely on Tekkers all the time.
If £25m came in for Benteke next year, I’d be amazed if the club didn’t at least contemplate taking it. £30m and I’d call it a certainty.
But I agree with Ian – I don’t believe things the press say about most things, especially football.
Would any of you say no to a sale of Benteke for a solid mid-field?
If a £30m offer came in the summer we would def take it, prolly take £25m too. I dont believe what I read in the papers/online but it opens up that possibility and that coupled with other things make you think. Most papers spout s**t, ask Lambert if Benteke has doubled in value he says definitely and all of a sudden we want to sell him for £16m and have all these clubs interested.
As far as formations go Matt theres plenty of ways we can play 2 upfront or accommodate both. Opposition has a weak cm 442, opposition has 3 in cm 4312 nzog floating, no width? 4231. Need a bit of everything 433/451 variant leave Bent out. Im just sayings its possible and imo the best way to get out of trouble.
That’s the nut of it, Ian. One more season and someone else would’ve bought Benteke. And if there’s one Benteke to be found, there are other value players out there the big boys are unwilling to take a punt on until they’ve proven themselves in the EPL with a smaller team.
I know we make the point all the time, but Spurs do alright with a wage structure and selling players on and replacing them.
And I understand when people say we didn’t replace Young or Barry or Milner….But the problem with math is that when you’ve lost £50m, you have to run at a £5-£10m profit for 5 or 10 years to make that up.
So you can’t just go out and spend like for like to replace players (because it’s not the transfer fees but the wages, too, that determine whether a club runs at a loss) and still get the wages sorted out and put the club on sound financial footing.
You have to go find bargains. Only the big spenders get to cherry pick the proven players.
Hey John
How bout the cherry picking done by the Avs and flames.
Sorry John, I missed you earlier, re Lambert, I think that he has an ego problem, he also likes to bully certain types but i heard a story about him attempting to enforce the ban on mobile phones with a senior player who is a VERY big lad and his bottle departed. Carruthers made a mistake, ok, let it ride because he could, IMO, have improved the team. Lambert also seems to want to prove a point with Bennett, i half expect him to play at Arsenal because i think PL knows that the fans at VP have twigged that Bennett is actually total cr*p and give him some welly, which to be fair, they have.
Regarding Bowery, i don’t knock anyone who gives that amount of effort, but as one of my previous managers told me ‘ If a skilled bloke goes for a job, with an unskilled one, who gets it ? Apart from politicians that is.
When you are in a position of manager you really have to be careful on what constitutes a problem in your mind. You also have to pick your battles. You can’t lose, you can’t be friends, and you can’t become a tyrant either. With as a diverse group as a professional sports club with players of all ages, quality, pay rates, creeds, colour, and personal backgrounds thrown into the same pot creates a common ground as thin as a razor. You can easily annoy without knowing. You can have cliques forming quickly as we have seen with Houllier. And language, culture, and homesickness can raise their heads too. Remember most are young adults.
Pick you line in the sand and hope it fits all equally. If cell phones are a no go, so be it. Don’t let it drag on. Move on and forget the transgression. With the negligible information that comes out of Villa I’m sure there is more to every story we here.
Oh dear, Ian…It’s amazing how unrecognizable this Avs team is to me. Watched them lose at the end of overtime last night, puck around the boards hit an official’s skate, bounced right out for Phoenix and they buried it.
But, I’m going to watch as much as I can. They work hard, I’ll give ‘em that.
As far as the manager’s task goes, you’re spot on there. Well said.
John,
If we sell Benteke for £25m we can sign three players, i doubt if PL will see much of that cash.
Regarding Barry, Milner, Downing and Young, only Barry asked for a transfer, the others were sold by the club ( Lerner ) , Ireland was signed by that well known expert Faulkner, how can you trust an idiot with £7m ? This is why AVFC is now a joke.
Ree K and Matt and John, very good arguments all round, i really enjoyed reading your points of view.
REE
Mate
you made a remark I `ll quote you excuse any errors
“Shouln`t Lambert be looking to find a system to accomodate Bent…..?”
Never in a million years Ree,with Lambert and the ethos he wants to introduce?Not a chance.
Lamert`s mentality?Darren you adapt to me and the club and our system not vice versa.
Cut off your nose to spite your face?Possibly,but I know I`m in a minority,but I like this ethos.Screw Bent adapt to us not the other way around.It`s a gamble and we may be relegated but so be it.I am sick of being blackmailed by these James Hunts,screw him,Darren close the door as you leave please.
Cheers, steamer:
I’m not sure what the schedules are for releasing financial information, ie, how soon after the end of March we’d know about the preceding year’s financial performance. I’m sure decisions will made based on that.
Young, we simply couldn’t afford. We wanted to do a deal, he didn’t. Likewise, Downing pledged his loyalty and gratitude, then had his head turned by Liverpool. Milner…When you’re offering a player that much more money to go play with world superstars in the Champions League, you’re just not likely to hold onto them.
This was the lesson Lerner took away from the Barry saga. You can try and keep a player, and perhaps succeed for while, but if a bigger opportunity is knocking, you almost lose them.
And the longer you hang on to them, the less leverage you have. You don’t get as much in the last year of their contract as you do a year before then. So you sell at the highest value. Milner could certainly have said, “City are offering £75k per week (no idea the actual wage), but I love Villa and will stay for £50k”. But I don’t think he did.
As far as I know, it was Martin O’Neill who wanted Ireland in the Milner deal. O’Neill’s departure didn’t end up scuttling the deal, it was too far along, and what was being offered was as much as we were going to get. So, yes, someone other than the manager signed Ireland, but the circumstances were a bit out of the ordinary.
The trick with pocketing some of the transfer fees is that it helps balance the books. It’s not to punish anyone. You run a £50m loss, make £37m of that back in transfer fees, you’re still down £13m. Then you sign players, add in their wages, and you’ve pocketed less, have a bigger loss on the year, and don’t trim the wage bill that much.
While not very interesting, this sort of thing is simply the face of reining in deficit spending.
Now, I’m a Keynesian when it comes to economics, and not a fan of austerity. But it’s not like there’s a conspiracy behind Lerner’s math, other than for Villa to be a business that sustains itself.
And perhaps that’s just not possible in the EPL any longer. That’s the real issue.
But we’ve been cutting back overall since before O’Neill left, which is why he left, been going on for 3.5 seasons now in terms of intent. Four-year contracts are finally running out. Not sure what our ratio is, but I’m thinking that if we’re reaching a break-even point, the manager gets to sell to buy (for the full value brought in) at some point soon.
Am with b6 on the Bent situation.
No player should be looked to be built around by virtue of an arbitrary concept, the team should be built around the best fit.
PS re: 4-3-1-2,
The only width you get sticking to that system means the midfield three getting wide and, given our people we have, who can both do that and fulfil their tactical role?
Surely not a trio of say Bannan, Delph, and Westwood as any width would then mean that there could be as little as one in the middle plus CNZ ahead of them.
4-3-3 isn’t a perfect formation for everyone, but I have a fairly logical and sensible football argument that it fits what we have at present.
Thanks re: the comments Steamer.
That, in a nutshell, is why AVL seems to remain popular – opinions differ but it never becomes a slanging match.
Hard to believe we are two years old at the end of next month. How time has flown, and thank you to everyone for their contributions.
Think I am following the Ian advice (I blame you Gibbo) and starting on the Lambs & Havana Club in a bit.
This Villa thing can (literally) drive you to drink.
Need to find S75 too so we can all get a crack at that brandy.
A man after my heart.
I think Ree was taken out of context. Obviously, even the way we read something differs, let alone how we see players’ performances.
Matt – Brandy
e-mail me your address , l can drop it over (might have the old git with me) or we can sort that meet up ,
Steamer
you said you had a word with a big player !! who was it BB !! , my cats bigger than you ))