Beating the Albion twice within just a few days of course gives us a lot of satisfaction. In addition, not only has the relegation worry reduced a tad, but we have also obtained an entry into the FA Cup semi-final, five years since we last got to that stage. The caution must be that history shows that we have been to this point before, in 1959: Villa then got to the semi-final but also got relegated, thanks to a draw at the Hawthorns; a reminder that the Albion has been meaningfully involved before in our history.

The Albion fans could say that the 1959 incident was pay-back time for their club’s exit in the 1957 semis at the hands of the Villa, and also for the 1956 relegation issue when Villa beat a comfortably-placed Albion 3-0 to enable Villa to stay up on an improbable mathematical factor of .01 of a goal.

But there is a deep history involving Villa and the Albion that has existed since around 1880 time, when the Albion seriously threatened to usurp Villa as the top dogs of the Midlands. In the mid-1880s Albion indeed looked as though they would march ahead of the Villa. When the two clubs came together in the FA Cup Final of 1887, Albion had already appeared in the final of that great trophy the previous year (1886), but lost, and now they thought their experience would put paid to Villa’s challenge. Albion had even pre-planned their celebration route for their imagined Cup triumph, but the Villa had other ideas. It was Villa – not Albion – that became the Midlands’ first Cup winners by winning 2-0 at The Oval. But Albion did not lie down: at their third attempt in successive years, Albion won the Cup the next year (1888).

Twice more, the Villa and the Albion would fight it out in the FA Cup Final. In 1892 Albion got a lot of satisfaction by blowing Villa aside 3-0, thanks mainly to a bumpy pitch and Villa’s keeper getting his sights wrongly adjusted. And then Villa won again in 1895. But though Villa and Albion have never met again in a Cup Final, there have been battles fought out in other rounds of both the FA and League Cup over the years, and those have been very seriously contested affairs: the 1957 semi being the most memorable, I would say.

In the 1950s right through to the 1980s, I remember Albion as having some great sides. Any club that has boasted the likes of Bobby Robson, Brian Robson, Ronnie Allen, Jeff Astle, Tony Brown, Cyrille Regis, Laurie Cunningham and other great names in their ranks must have been a club with something great to offer. And Jimmy Dugdale, of course, gained winner’s medals with both Albion (1954) and Villa (1957). In fact, when I was a youngster I always thought of the Albion as Villa’s real local rivals – the Small Heath club never meant much to me after their abortive attempt to win the Cup in 1956, even though later on I did admire Jimmy Bloomfield and Trevor Francis.

So, after extolling the great history of the Albion I come to the climax of this piece: our new manager has described the Albion as a “small club”.

Now, it’s likely we would all agree with him on that matter, but is it a statement that has to be publicly uttered by a Villa official? I rather suspect that his pronouncement may have pressed one or two wrong buttons amongst the Albion fans, so that Villa also twice gaining the upper hand over the past week may have helped generate their outrage. I would certainly not say that Tim Sherwood was the cause of their fans’ fiendish pranks, but I do think that a tone of more respect for their club would have helped to keep the heat down a little.

We certainly seem to have a new manager with plenty of fire in his belly – and that is welcome – but let’s not totally eradicate the wonderful competition with the Albion that Villa have enjoyed for over 130 years. The relationship of the two clubs has been greatly tested on some occasions, but it has mostly been a well-fought kind of relationship. I would like it to be kept that way if possible.

Anyhow, for Villa the way forward must now be onward and upward!

UTV!

Comments 151

  1. Thanks for history lesson John it was great to see the passion back on Saturday . It’s been a long time coming. I don’t think any of the remaining clubs will want to play us now that out tails are up. Nothing like passion and fight to keep is up in the league

  2. John,

    Nice article and yes the rivalry does run deep, I despise the baggies and I hate the mealies, nothing wrong with that in my opinion in fact if it was not for this tribal rivalry football would be dead on its arse, Rugby is watched by a completely different set of fans so cannot be mentioned in the same breath, it is just the way it has always been and long may it continue.

    I do not think any comments made by TS had anything to do with what went on Saturday evening, the point has been made many times when fans before a high profile derby are given seven hours drinking time before kick off then that is a massive recipe for disaster, I am sure those morons letting off the fire extinguishers on the concourse were not thinking about Sherwoods good little club comment.

    Unfortunately we seem to be talking about these incidents and the game has been forgotten amongst this melee, the ref seems to have got off scott free for some shocking decisions including the Jacob sending off which I thought was a really good tackle, add to that a decent performance by Sinclair and CNZ is showing signs of improvement, in fact with Benteke back that could be a solid front three that might get us out of trouble.

    AVFC ITWT

  3. swv,

    Agreed that Jacob’s tackle was not worth a sending off – but it was a 2-footed tackle (or could be interpreted as such).

    I agree also that “drinking time” was a ripe cause of the problem, and that’s why I did not suggest that TS was the cause. But I simply don’t think it was right for him to make that comment. It seems unnecessary and must have played in the minds of some fans, particularly after they lost 2 games against us.

  4. Love the history John.
    Possibly TS’s comments are the popular belief among football circles, nothing more than a cliche, eg Aston Villa – a sleeping giant, Birmingham City – bunch of unwashed rat faced vermin, you know the thing, sometimes people are too polite to tell the truth, i thought TS got it just right, who do they think they are ? Barca, Real, Bayern no they’re just a crappy little club who’s fans have a single digit IQ, if they’re upset, tough.

  5. Thanks for the brief background to the rivalry, clearly that rivalry is generational. I’d absolutely say that Saturday seemed to me to be a release of pent up feeling for the last 4 years, it was less about the rivalry although it played a part.

    Wasn’t it great to see real passion around winning an important game, clearly it was the final itself but in this age of sanitised all seated support and the complaints about atmosphere even in grounds that hold more than ours.

    Sure we’ll have media focus on us until such time as the club is fined by the actions of a few morons who clearly hit the drink long before kick off but in time this will be forgotten and it’s up to Villa PR to sell this to the media as being passionate Villa support and not sit back and have journalists drive the agenda.

    It’s a great time after so long to be a Villan, the soul has been reborn after beating the Baggies twice, we can look forward to Sunderland instead of being fearful. Rejoice the Villa are back.

    UTV

  6. Hi John,

    Total respect to West Brom. Tim may have indeed sent their blood pressure rising with that comment, but that really is just part of the game; part of the kidology.

    I was in the Holte End on Saturday and at the 9th minute the Villa Park screens brought up the Jeff Astle appeal. At that moment the whole of Villa Park rose to join their Albion counterparts in the minute’s applause. That shows far more than any words, where our true feelings lie.

  7. Morning Proud Lifers and Villans

    What I am about to right is not intentionally controversial,but as AVL is not a popularity contest,more a platform of opinions and beliefs,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well I believe the events(non sport related)at VP illustrate to me once again that the one remaining demograhic group that it is open season on is the white(mainly).male(mainly)football fan.The estatblishment,press,the chattering classes love to put the boot in ,and are allowed to freely and unchallenged,indulge in verbal slaughter of football supporters.They are allowed to do this because the football fan has no voice,no means of defence, to call upon,no liberal QC`s to speak out in their defence,God forbid one of the wasters in Parliament should step in and say “hang on,it was wrong,but not that bad”.

    I am not defending the behaviour on Saturday,it was wrong but does not merit many of the adjectives being used.I dare say that when worse behaviour is witnessed in a “protest” environment……..e.g the looting spree a couple of years ago,we had MP`s and trendies falling over themselves to “blame the cuts” for such criminality.But hey they weren`t footy fans,so let`s defend them,no,let`s excuse them.If you are middle class and at UNI your riot is a protest,if you are a footy fans,your actions,are a “disgrace” “unbelievable” and “disgusting”.
    Yes these same “animals” are the same “type” of people that the Establishment use to defend the country and send off to pointless wars.OK lads we know you`re scum but we need you now.Hypocrites the lot of `em.
    I apolgise for drifting away from the footy diecussion,but the coverage of the events on Saturday,is doing me nut in.

  8. Yes I agree the ninth minute was respected by both sets of fans and we were the recipients of complimentary comments from the BBC who described Villa and their fans has classy.
    80 minutes later we were hooligans thugs and village idiots, oh well shit happens.

    AVFC ITWT

  9. Great history lesson John, and liked all the info in the Souvenir Programme, which again was a winner by Villa.

    I did not realise how much the Albion fans had been split in North End and Doug Ellis stand, and had Villa fans around them.This is unacceptable, and as a footie fan, i would not have been happy with this if we were in a similar position at a rival ground.

    Picked this up from the report by the Albion chairman,who has made a very honest and clear assessment of what was behind a lot of the problems.

    I am amazed that villa were allowed to do this to, apparently to try and lessen the noise from the away fans…..Did they not think that Villa fans were more than capable of drowning them out.?? Their fans should have been totally segregated, and then a lot of the problems would not have occurred inside and outside the ground. The police must take responsibility for allowing this, and allowing such a late kick-off time.

  10. John

    A short but absrbing leader.I,not being a local lad,don`t feel the Vermin rivalry at all,I have always regarded the Baggies as the “proper” derby>A club that has some tradition,and has made a contribution to the sport and record books.

    On the topic of TS and respect…well to receive respect you must give it,and the Cropley incident,in a match that was essentially a violent asssault on the Villa players for 90 minutes,,,still stinks for me.Yeah,a bit of lingering bitterness there,of which I am not proud.Also Gardener`s behaviour during and after the last fixture does not warrant respect.If they don`t like it too bad.
    Also to reinforce the “small club ” label,Foster is the only Albion player to be capped since Astle in 1970,now maths is not my strong suit but,isn`t that 45 years?

  11. B62B,

    I am with you totally we have been seen as scum for years and treated so ,lets take that dust up in the Witton Arms before the game, now if you get caught on CCTV involved in that fight you could be looking at some time in jail and definitely a minimum three year ban from all football grounds in the country, you will also have to report to your local copshop before every England away game and hand in your passport.
    Compare this to a fight in a city centre pub on a Saturday night that is not football related and if caught you will probably get a caution or at worst a £85 fine for a minor public order offence.

    Football fans have always been treated like the scum of the earth what other sport has a section 26 that is designed to stop a coach full of football fans from travelling if it is deemed they are out to cause trouble, on Saturday I watched hundreds invade the pitch and I never saw a punch thrown so where did the headline “Animals” come from.

    AVFC ITWT

  12. B6

    There have been clashes to forget over the past 50 years admittedly. But when we talk of the Cropley incident, we also need to recall the way Ronnie Allen was tackled in the 1960s era. Just because he had scored the goal that had put Villa down in 1959.

    There was more violence in the mid-60s between Clive Clark and Harry Burrows – both got sent off.

    Sorry, Astle is not the only Albion capped player since 1970. Regis and Robson were also in the 1980s, and there may be more.

  13. I thought the flag had changed….much better.

    Getting some pride back after a great week, especially with QPR losing there 2 games in hand.

    Still think we are in deep trouble, to have a good chance we need another good weekend of winning and others losing then i may belive a lot more.

    13 or 15 Points from 10 games as it stands is dodgy ground.

  14. Of course John,no apology required,I`d forgotten about Regis NHS Robson,I stupidly-no excuse here-read a journalist`s take on Astle and swallowed it forgetting the other two.
    I didn`t know about bad blood with Allen.
    Didn`t Dereck Statham play for Enfland too?A very good FB.

  15. B6,

    Interesting article of yours on how football fans are treated – and the massive media over-reaction to what happened on Saturday.

    Trouble is, the little people will always be walked over … in particular matters like the bedroom tax and how disabled people were affected by that and the tests they suddenly had to face. Nobody really stood up and made a big fight on that matter – opponents merely stood up in Parliament and objected, but there was no media outburst about the matter.

    Even I have had a stupid dispute with the car park management company at The Fort shopping centre. As you probably know it’s basically a free car park, but because I parked in a disabled bay without a blue card (my wife is temporarily disabled) they put a notice on my car and wanted £60 within 14 days. Of course I appealed explaining mitigating circumstances, but they wouldn’t listen and then expected me to pay £100!

    I’m probably being taken to court, but from what I understand, they have no legal basis for expecting payment.

    The point I’m making is that reasonable people would have let the matter go – but oh, no! They must get the people that can least afford it.

  16. Thanks for another great history lesson JL

    delighted with everything TS as brought to the table so far and after at least 5 dud managers in a row that all had a stone age approach to football its nothing short of joyous to see how the team is set up motivated and directed going into a football match

    WEMBELEY –
    its a shame about the fans who came on before the final whistle , there actions aint exactly covering the club in the glory we should be basking in right now — no excuses but as mentioned in other posts its a bit stupid putting a midland derby on at 5.30pm

    yes st75 hopefully we can hook up for the semi’s and have few bevvies before the game

  17. I`m sorry to read of your minor battle the bureaucracy John,but then,you/we are an easy target and the pen pushers will pursue us as such.Why?Because you are probably law abiding and done the right thing all your life.Had you been a persistent drug taking shoplifter with a long criminal record,a Blues fan in other words,then you would get all the help,aid and support you could imagine.There would be legal aid and social workers at your disposal.Rant over.A depressing situation,good luck.

  18. Seems now that the Press are now backtracking, and the Mirror and Daily Star have now toned down their reports on the aftermath of the match. Just jibbing at the stewards now, for their over zealous attitude to Press people.

    Nice to see Matt Kendrick is now back welcome at Villa Park reporting on our great team.

  19. Paul

    Over here in Brasil,they marveled at the ocassion,the game ,the passion of the fans,the atmosphere,everyone I spoke to ,who saw it,thought it was amazing.However they didn`t have English commentary,telling them the the pitch invaders were blood thirsty,murdering sociopaths,armed with machetes and hand grenades, on day release from Broadmoor.

  20. Matt is there a recording of you FA interview that you can post up
    steamer thats why i can’t even look at TVB any more – i stopped about 3 yrs ago as i found it biased towards the writers views and i swear there are blue noses all over it based on some of the regular comments – thank gord for AVL

  21. B6,

    Steve Hunt remains the last Albion outfield player to be capped by England (1984, vs USSR).

    The same Steve Hunt that played for Villa before and after Albion.

  22. No B6B,

    The were just the local boys on day release from Winson green….LOL…and a few extras from Peaky Blinders who had been drinking in the Tavern .

    The worst bit, as I said earlier, was result of the club not segregating the Albion fans, which was utterly foolish by the club, and apparently a deliberate act to lessen their ability to make a noise. Apart from that there was no problem from any of the fans.

  23. B6,

    Thanks for the good wishes re: parking issue. If they take me to court I’ll see if I can’t get a press reporter there who can make nonsense of the parking company: to save all other disabled people and pensioners a headache.

  24. John,

    Best of luck in your fight but I am afraid the law is a complete arse.

    I have an issue with disabled parking especially at supermarkets, in fact if they was to put them further away from the stores then able people would be less inclined to use them.

    AVFC ITWT

  25. I’ve just looked at the run in and there is still a hell of a lot of work to do to climb to 40 points.

    I see 4 winnable matches with three draws and that would be good going to save us.

    Very positive about the last week but there is still a lot of cheering to do.

    I thought ‘we’re down’ after the Hull loss. Now I think we have hope but I’m not going daft.

    A win against Sunderland is an absolute must to make use of momentum.

  26. Aston Villa fan Matt Turvey, editor of astonvillalife.com, watched the game from the Upper Holte End and insisted: ‘The timing was pretty stupid.

    ‘I’m not overly sure about the rationale but 12.30pm would have been ideal. You’re getting people drinking from 9.30am and turning up at Villa Park at 5.30pm – it’s a pretty obvious result.

    ‘If it was down to TV then it just illustrates that everything is pushed aside for money.

    Our very own Matt in the national press.

    AVFC ITWT

  27. Nice piece JL,

    I have to be honest i have never had any truck with the baggies, for me they were always the second aunt that no one ever spoke to, You know the one who always had the odd family and only tuned up at weddings for the food, only to slope off afterwards without saying tara.

    I have to say that i was a little embarrassed when the fans came on the pitch, and feared the worst, luckily it was as most described it; over excitement at having finally witnessed a performance worthy of us. Had many of our fans realised the seats were being ripped up and thrown into the crowd, also the shameful behaviour on the concourse, things would have been different. The funny thing about it was they were actually posing for the video while firing off the extinguishers.

    I do get the impression that this fixture always means so much more to them than it does to us. Living in Worcestershire i have on many occasion been on the train as they are leaving the Hawthorns and the vitriol about us is far worse than about the Vermin.

    TS comment about being on the pitch celebrating too if he was a little more nimble on his feet was quality, so far he has done the right things and said the right things, maybe we have lucked into the right man at the right time. with each passing week i like him more and long may it continue.

    #fightlikelions #avfc

  28. Decent of you to describe the Cropley thing as an incident John, i thought it was a disgraceful assault by a rabid animal that should have seen him banned for life, no intention or even pretence of going for the ball. If it had happened in the street he’d have done time, to add insult to injury he wasn’t even booked.

  29. On a sad note,a true throwback to the 80s violence,a watford fan got done in at Wolves and has “life threatening injuries”,it won`t get any headlines,because all the fake outrage from Saturday is dominating the media,I hope this fella makes it,all the best to him.

  30. My final thought on the fans on the pitch.

    Why didn`t the ref stop the game,pass a message to the stadium announcer to warn the fans to stay in the stands?It would have taken 1 minute and then restart the game,just a thought.

  31. Thats the trouble with having small clubs as neighbours, its ‘little mans complex’ and unfortunately they do actually live down to it, Olbyon and the mongrels don’t have a lot going for them apart from being born in Birmingham, albeit the ropey parts. Justifiably the rest of the country shows them scant regard, why should they ? What they are good at is inhabiting the realms of fantasy, in their world everything fits into their scheme of things, i used to work with a load of them, never spoke to them, couldn’t lower myself, just made a show of my Villa scarf after a good win, still the same now, hate the bastards.

  32. B6toBrasil: ‘on a sad note,a true throwback to the 80s violence,a watford fan got done in at Wolves and has “life threatening injuries”’. Right on the money, a bunch of football fans jumping a 44 year old bloke and kicking him into a coma – that for me is outrageous.

    JL, I was at that game and the Cropley ‘incident’ was a shocker. As I said last week, Hutton can do Berahino another 50 times and we still won’t be even.

    Roderick Seel, I got the train back to Kidder after the Villa game at Liverpool a few years back after Albion had stayed up with 34 points or whatever it was. I must have got back to Brum around 9 so it would probably have been around 10 o’clock. They had just stayed up but all we had for 45 minutes was their cover version of Blues only song. I never had a problem with Albion’s fans until they started their love in with the dirties.

  33. steamer yes i rember it well you said oh that was bad luck what a mistimed tackle well that was the translated version what i can put down in words the expletives would fill this page

  34. Some TS qoute’s – bit of a lad isnt

    17. On losing 4-0 to Chelsea: “It all went Pete Tong after half-time didn’t it?”

    16. On win percentages: “I’ve got a 59 per cent win ratio in the Premier League and I think if I had started the season in charge we’d be in the Champions League.”

    15. On Glenn Hoddle: “Glenn’s got a lot of opinion and he’s also got a lot of opinion about Tottenham, and he’s entitled to that. It’s been a long time since Glenn Hoddle’s managed a football team and the game has moved on significantly.”

    14. On the quality of the Spurs squad: “Are there any world class Gareth Bale-type players? No, there are not.”

    13. On Hugo Lloris (one week later): “He is a top-drawer goalkeeper – a genuine world-class player.”

    12. On nice-guy players: “Too many of them are too nice to each other. We need to show a bit more guts and not want to be someone’s mate all the time. It can’t always be me.”

    11. On Roy Hodgson: “No matter what players he was given, he would work tirelessly with them. He’d leave no stone unturned with his squad and the players reap the rewards. I honestly believe he was the best coach I ever worked with but not the best manager.”

    10. On Tottenham fans: “Liverpool are a different kettle of fish to us; home-grown players at Liverpool are embraced. They love homegrown players at Liverpool. Tottenham fans like signings.”

    9. On plucking a Spurs fan from the crowd to replace him on the bench: “That guy’s an expert, seriously. Every week he tells me what to do. So I gave him the opportunity to do the job. He bottled it at first but then he swallowed it. It was just good banter.”

    8. On Gareth Bale: “His fee looks cheap now. If he is going to deliver them the European Cup, then that looks good business.”

    7. On literature: “I don’t read books. I read the Daily Express and The Star.”

    6. On publicly criticising players: “They’re all men, they know I’m saying it from the heart, not from a script, but on impulse.”

    5. On Dimitar Berbatov: “He’s the sort of player who can get managers the sack. He can throw his toys out of the pram at times and, as a manager, you have to make sure he’s 100% committed to your football club. If not, he can be a bad apple and you don’t want that around your squad.”

    4. On being a caretaker manager: “If you have a supply teacher who comes into your school, sometimes they’re not treated with the respect that a headmaster is.”

    3. On Blackburn chairman Jack Walker preferring him to Zinidine Zidane: “He was a great judge of a player, that Jack Walker. No, come on, you shouldn’t even put me and Zidane in the same sentence.”

    2. On being a straight talker. “I’m never going to take a step back. I’m just going to shoot from the hip. That’s what I’m like. I’m a manager, not a babysitter.”

    1. On cheese: “Only cheddar. I don’t get involved in the rest of that muck. Mild.”

  35. Sorry to bang on about that lot but also –
    John Woodward, signed from Stork as a replacement for Hateley, in his first game scored 2 versus Leeds, second game was versus Olbyon, took a bad tackle never played for two years but was virtually finished and went to Walsall on a free.
    Ray Graydon, took a bad tackle at the Hawthorns and missed months in the 70’s.
    All three incidents were deliberate and vicious.

  36. Steamer,

    I suspect that a lot of that was due to a long-lasting hangover from 1959 and then the Ronnie Allen tackle-fest. It heralded a long period of antipathy between the clubs.

  37. Fascinating article as always John . WBA are also famous for being the first club to field three black players, Cyril Regis, LAurie Cunningham and Brendan Batson – and I quote

    “Never before had an English team simultaneously fielded three black players, and the Three Degrees, as they became known (in reference to the contemporary vocal trio of the same name), challenged the established racism of English football. Their success in the Albion side marked a watershed that allowed a generation of footballers to enter the game who would previously have been excluded by their ethnic background. Albion reached the 1978 FA Cup semi-final but lost to Ipswich Town…..
    Ron nicknamed the boys the Three Degrees following an appearance by the real Motown legends at the club’s ground.

    Legendary Midlands sports journalist Bob Downing reflects on their phenomenal impact on the whole of English football, “People talk about them being a breath of fresh air and those three lads were,” he says.

    “Laurie had flair, Cyrille was all power and Brendan was the thinking man’s footballer. I don’t think they ever went anywhere looking for a draw.”

    Anyway, I digress.

    Last week there were hours and hours wasted on Cisse and Jones spitting – it just went on and on – ok it was wrong – but how can this playground spat (excuse pun) get first billing on the national news – I despair.

    Now we have the pitch invasion and more significantly the injuries. I haven’t read much on this -but from what I have read it is clear that the majority of fans who invaded the pitch were celebrating – and a few went over the top. No excuse for threatening Myhill or the other WBA players – and the villa fans doing that are plain ignorant. Fabian Delph has said he was bitten (what the hell!) and it was frightening. More worrying was the WBA fans ripping out seats and throwing them at the villa fans – and in one case a bloke’s head was cut open needing stitches and there were frightened children and the elderly. That is horrible so how did this happen. Who was the klutz at VIlla who masterminded putting the WBA fans on top of the villa fans so they could throw things down on them – and as Paul P has said – sandwich the two lots of fans together. Ridiculous !!!!

    THe aftermath. I have read that Pulllis has condemned and apologised in no uncertain terms the WBA fans for carrying on like this. I haven’t read Tim Sherwood apologising for the idiotic villa fans who poked Myhill in the eye and shoved and threatened other WBA players . This is repulsive behaviour and as the hosts, AV should issue an apology / regret immediately. If it has happened then I missed it , so my mistake.

    The over exuberance and the pitch celebrations are a reaction to what we have had to put up with for four years and really you can’t blame people for celebrating in this way. You can question why the board at AV have let things linger on for so long though. For those that ran on to celebrate with the players and in no way intended to intimidate the albion players, then I can see no difference between our celebrations and Man City pitch invasion when they won the league. Yes they had more to celebrate in real terms, but when your team wins back to back games at home (when was the last time they did that) and actually look like a football team for the first time in four years, the euphoria is understandable. This is not excusing the idiots who were violent but the majority I understand were actually booing those who went on the pitch who could have jeopardised Villla’s win.

  38. Jenny,

    It was, of course, Big Ron that gave those three the appellation ‘The Three Degrees’ – and he was proud of them, his finds.

    But it was Big Ron that received his marching orders for so-called racist comments on a match broadcast a few years ago – PC going mad.

  39. Just seen photos of the idiots going up to Myhill – doubt they’d approach him if they didn’t have their mates with them.

    A couple of seasons ago I took my two girils on the train to the game – and in our carriage on the way back a fight broke out – villa v villa fans right in front of us . My girls were terrified. And this was at 5.30 after the game so no all day drinking excuse. They won’t go on the train to matches now. So the kids sitting below the WBA fans must have been similarly frightened when seats and bottles of wee were thrown at them. Very upsetting .

  40. nice bit of history John thanks,
    looks like I’ve missed out on some more history today, fascinated to hear about all those much maligned football fans who never set out to cause trouble, abuse or in anyway be a public nuisance. Don’t know where people could of got the impression they have? disgraceful.

    As much as the pitch invasion was a storm in a tea cup don’t think we can blame anyone but ourselves for the outcry it was inevitable. I guess we will be seeing a massive police and steward presence for the rest of the season. I hope we come out with just a fine and I suppose we can pay for it from the money the club received for televising the game 🙂

    any chance of talking about the actual game now? did anyone notice that WBA had four centre halves? Lescott and Dawson as wingbacks must have been a surprise when tekkers wasn’t playing

  41. 15 Stewards for an FA Cup QF, local derby, kicking off at that time ( and certain blogs warned of trouble ) reeks of admin incompetence. No doubt they’ll attempt to worm their way out of it.

  42. what’s the chance jen that the fans just celebrating on the pitch get ID and banned? Its such a shame that some just cannot control themselves and ruin it for all. football grounds are no longer male only domains and people should behave accordingly.
    JL- I’m assuming that in the old days people behaved? At what point did it become so much darker than friendly rivalry in your opinion?

  43. Mark,
    Wellington Road was closed after a riot vs PNE in 18ask JL.
    The Villans used to ambush the Boggies on the way to WR so its not an isolated incident.

    I think we stand a good chance of beating Pool, Rovers i’m not sure about, as for the final, TS is a gooner, but why not ? they’ll certainly sooner play us than Liverpool.

    My eyes have seen the glory of the Villa win the cup,
    Seven times we’ve won it no-one else will catch us up
    We are the boys in Claret and Blue we are the chosen few
    And the Villa go marching on
    Glory, Glory Aston Villa, Glory, Glory Aston Villa
    And the Villa go marching on

  44. you never know lads and lasses this just might be our year Liverpool or Blackburn I don’t care as we are now the unknown. Liverpool will be facing a different team altogether 🙂

  45. I rarely watch footy,but watched the entire game tonight.A.Young,has really become a proper Man U player now,hasn`t he? He.dives,appeals for everything,moans at the ref,leaves a foot in,and appeals to the ref to send players off.A real Man U. player.

    Well done tonight ref,under constant pressure from Rooney,who tries to ref every game he plays in.

  46. We now need to win three years on the trot Steamer to be back out in front…..

    Roll on Sherwood’s army….let the battle lines be drawn……….

    Villa are now on the dawning of a new era, and I may now hopefully see some glory in my time….(since the turn of the Millenium anyway..!!)

    In the words of the famous song by that great super group “Abba”…..The winner takes it all…..and this time let it be Aston Villa….VTID..VTID…

  47. Mark: I’m assuming that in the old days people behaved? At what point did it become so much darker than friendly rivalry in your opinion?

    No, there were many accounts of fans going mad (in terms of fisticuffs) in the days when fans had access to the players – players very often had to be quick to get away with their lives on occasion. There was one occasion when George Ramsay got hit in the neck by a brick as he was travelling in his horse-drawn cab or jarvey, and Harry Hampton was lucky to escape injury after an Anfield match once. etc etc.

    I was just voicing a view that all connected with the game need to evolve and be more rugby or hockey like in behaviour. We should have passed the caveman stage by now! 😉

  48. Steamer: Wellington Road was closed after a riot vs PNE in 18ask JL.

    No, if we’re thinking of the same event the ground was not closed, Steamer. What happened was that the ground had too many spectators and got out of hand a bit. It was a bit like the 1923 Wembley white horse scenario with some mounted police and militia having to keep back the crowd. Except rather than the Wembley figure of 120,000+ being at WR, the crowd was about 25,000! Normal maximum gate at WR was 15,000.

    That was in the FA Cup of 1887-88. The skippers of both sides agreed at h-t that the match should be regarded as a friendly, but PNE instead (having won 3-1) appealed the matter to the FA and won their case – that they had won the round – and Villa were ousted. Albion did Villa a favour by then beating PNE.

  49. my god
    a ref that stood up to utd and rooney does any one think if fergie was on bench would ref been as brave
    rojo should have went for sissors tackle that was bad and that move camefrom young diving and not getting free
    keane saying give van gal time well it doesnt always work lerner gave lambert to much time
    hopefully now utd miss out on champions league having spent almost 250m in 2 years where did mata go
    utd rant over
    roll on sunderland sherwood might just be man to get us ticking 3 wins all deserved and we should had 2 draws stoke newcastle didnt deserve to win games
    up villa

  50. Jen,

    Very sad to hear about your girls’ experience on the train, as travelling by train can be so much fun, and you meet lots of interesting people, fellow supporters, opposition supporters,m and people who just enjoy chatting. I did alot of train train travelling to VP for a while, but gave it up when it got difficult to get home, because of constant re-arranged match times. So now I always drive.

    I agree with you about how frightening it must have been for those underneath, and not a good experience. The club really need to take action and put right the wrong they committed.

  51. As James said, the ref did a great job tonight, and the respect for them must be upheld.

    Football needs to sort out this constant surrounding of officials, only the captain should be allowed to question the official, and he must have a good reason, once this happens, we may see some improvement on the pitch.

  52. Thanks JL,
    Its hard to say without going into research mode how peaceable other sport are or if they have always been that way? respect on the pitch would probably help calm the crowd as would video replay on the big decisions. Although I think it would take something from the game.
    footballs tribal aspect draws good and bad to it as people like to belong. It also reflects the peoples frustrations with life, government etc. The growing wealth gap will see more of this springing up IMO, beginning to feel a little like the late 70’s early 80’s.

    Meanwhile here is a decent review of the game

    http://7500toholte.sbnation.com/2015/3/10/8177951/how-we-beat-the-baggies-fa-cup-villa-west-brom-tactics-analysis

  53. l enjoyed RK last night , telling it as it is , goals were diabolical , and shearer,and wright never ventured a murmur against what he said ,
    better start sewing zips on your pockets if we get the bin dippers ,

    on the radio at this moment , the name Gary is an endangered species !! endangered?? should have been wiped out with the dinosaurs ,
    and Doris , jeez lv drank with some Doris Karloffs during my time,

    JD
    you’d have a job running round the bullring with the cup mate , its a nightmare to get round now and fuck knows where the bus would go as well ,

    whats blue and white and goes Beep beep beep beep ???
    the albion open top bus reversing back into the station !!!!

    have a good day all

    Jenny xxxxxx

  54. JL as the police stated they didn’t expect this from these clubs and I suspect neither did the villa park management.
    But having already beaten them once in a week, long drinking hours, pre match fights and poor placement of the away fans they need to take a good look as its always better to be prepared (see what I did there? 😉 )

  55. Mark,

    Yep … I firmly agree that social conditions do contribute to the attitude of fans. But at the same time we are each given the ability to control our own behaviour; it’s about time that people learnt that just ‘letting off’ has a negative affect on themselves, let alone anything else.

    At the same time, a lot of what happened on Saturday was pretty mild and has been overblown. And the match was scheduled for the wrong time of day.

  56. I agree john, unfortunately when the opportunity for something negative to happen arrises it will in events like this. its then amplified by the media. they are after all a reflection of the powers that be’s nervousness around the people they ah erm….. serve

  57. Hello Mark, Blackburn for me. If we play well we should beat them but more than that I can’t stand Liverpool – club or fans or the BBC’s love in with them. I’ll be taking a couple of my kids to Wembley and would rather spend the day down there without looking over my shoulder for the bin dippers.

  58. The semi-final opponents…?

    Well, as I’ve indicated before, we have gradually been playing ‘better’ sides in the Cup … Blackpool, Bournemouth, Leicester and Albion have progressively taken us through and so we must now be due to meet a team that’s higher than Albion. Which leaves ‘Pool.

    But we can beat ‘Pool! And the likeliest final opponent would be Arsenal, who are again at a higher level.

    It’d be nice to beat the Gunners … we have some unfinished business from the ’30s to get sorted!!

  59. I would like to see us tested against a better side in the league john, for all our improvement we haven’t come up against a top forward line or midfield yet. That should give us a better idea of our capabilities

  60. 10 games left and 3 or 4 wins needed makes sunderland a must win game.

    Id like us to play well for the 90mins and not just 45.

    Intersesting to see who plays if tekkers fit and what formation. Cant really drop sinclair, too much of a threat.

  61. I think Benteke’s fitness is crucial, fairly confident of staying up anyway, but Benteke is light years above any striker our fellow strugglers have.
    Slumberland seem to have slipped into crisis mode, it wouldn’t surprise me if they imploded.
    Leicester seem to be accepting their fate unlike Burnley who battle, are motivated but are a little short in the talent department.
    QPR are the latest club to feel the folly of Redknapp, a dire manager who’s has a record of signing numerous second rate players on top wages, goodbye to them, a tiny club who are punching way above their weight.
    Olbyon showed nothing against us and could be drawn into the equation as could Everton, whatever, i expect a rejuvinated Villa to scrape by again.
    The close season brings more questions, will we be sold, if so then how much money will Tim be allowed to spend ? i think the signs show that Lerner has a buyer lined up, no doubt wealthy, no doubt American. I don’t think Lerner is particularly bothered who he sells to as long as he gets his money back, ditto, i’m not bothered who he sells to as long as he’s out of VP. Ideally i’d like Middle Eastern buyers due to the lack of locals willing or capable of finding the funding for a takeover.The history of AVFC won’t regard Lerner with any affection, he doesn’t deserve any either.

  62. steamer- will new owners mean new manager? I hope not we may not be world beaters but it will rarely be dull under Tim S.

    andrew- we have six of the lower teams and TS beat those regularly with spurs but got his arse handed to him by the top teams. maybe the way he plays is too much for lower teams but open day for the top teams. can see us getting 4 wins at least and it would be good to see at least some draws thrown in and decent displays against city etc. the spurs game will be special with TS really wanting a win there.

  63. the six lower teams are all doable west ham probably the hardest on form. And I fancy us to get something against Manure out of the four top teams.

  64. steamer- if tekkers sparks up I think he will be the key to the season end being laboured or a stroll. Sinclair has added goals, if a few more step up, zoggy, gabby and the midfield
    he should get way more room to operate. If the prospect of getting to a final doesn’t do it nothing will.

  65. Although the results don’t indicate it, TS has already done quite a job, the improvement in Zog, Clev Slimfast and even Benteke has been impressive, it just goes to show what you can do if you have a personality, doesn’t look too good for Lambert though does it ? Zoggy could become a vital cog, he’s a lot fitter now, ability never in dispute. How strange that Lambert never noticed how unfit the team was, Delph employed a PT, John Terry said everyone knows we last 70 minutes, Gabby had to have his shirts made to measure and Zog and Bent were clearly overweight. Unprofessional doesn’t cover it, irresponsible and incapable fit the bill, no matter how many times he visits Jeermany Lambert will still be remembered as worse than McCleish and the worst manager in Villa’s history.

  66. Steamer,

    What you say is difficult to argue with, but as I’m sure you realise, we are where we are as a result of the awful management of the club. Those managers should never have been allowed through the gates!

  67. have you noticed the toning down of false optimism on the villa site? players are genuinely enthusiastic instead of reading from a script whatever next.
    the fitness/fatness thing is a mystery, we all saw it , why didn’t Lambert? unless there testosterone had fallen that low
    from losing and depression they were heading to early male menapause

  68. steam/john/mark

    And there we have in a nutshell the old thing of the manager being the most important thing at a football club
    You can bad owners – tick – lack of investment – tick- low standars – tick – but if the managers isnt the right guy to get the best out of what you have at a club it is doomed for failure

    Randy seems to have stumbled over a manager worthy of such a great job but if he actaully had some standard of expectation we would have sacked the last 3 managers within 6 months or better still not even considered them

  69. Andrew- since when has TS been realistic? 😉 if he continues to improve the mids and forwards as he has and gets them doing it for 90 mins we could get something from the April games. defence is where I think we could struggle if the injuries don’t let up. as I said earlier a fired up benteke is what’s needed and he likes to play the top teams. I still don’t think we have seen our best team yet.

  70. andrew I think it will go up or down depending on the result and how it comes about. so far we have only produced in half a game at a time as usual but the fact TS has identified fitness as a priority that can only get better ( if they don’t all end up injured). So far he has seemed to have found this new player called nzogbia from the reserves and grealish seems to be growing into the task, we have options like Gil too not just weiman gabby tekkers.
    so at the moment I’m a 5.5

    oh and Kosak is getting closer (only 13 months now)

    http://hereisthecity.com/en-gb/2015/03/10/aston-villas-libor-kozak-tweets-on-another-huge-step-in-his-come/?

  71. Good to see you chaps more optimistic than me! Ill ask again sat night!

    Mark, yeah hopefully with each passing day we are getting fitter and players understanding ts more. Great news on kozac. From what i saw of him i really liked him.

  72. Evening all .
    As for the WBA players tripping our supporters up , that’s nothing compared to what Brian Clough did when the pitch was invaded when his team was playing .There’s a vid of him literally going at fans boxing their ears , shoving them clouting them as they invade the pitch and pushing them over – it’s hilarious . He looked absolutely livid

    I am on a 10 for staying up . The other relly strugglers like Liecester, Sunderland, QPR , Burnley are looking stale and given their points tally players must be doubting themselves deep down .

    On RK , I agree ST 75 , one of the reasons I wanted him
    At villa was because he is direct and brutally honest . I can imagine he is honest with himself too – as in his book when he relayed the story of Brian Clough punching him in the face for something he’d done on the pitch :instead of saying what a bully he was , as many would have done , he said he wasn’t upset because “I probably deserved it “. 🙂 He makes me laugh and it’s great hearing him rip into United haha .

  73. I’m at 5, straight down the middle, I’m positive about Villa for the first time in a long time and we’ve enough games to get the points we need and similarly to the last few years we’ve a good few poor teams around us that have tougher games than us.

    Asking now, please excuse the capital letters, as I need all your help. Seriously want to get to Wembley, I was there for the semi-final against Bolton and the final against Chelsea in 2000. IF ANYONE CAN HELP GET ME A TICKET. I’LL BE FOREVER GRATEFUL. I’ve no ticket history as I go through the Irish Lions and only really get a chance to go one game a season for money/family reasons.

    If Aston Villa Life is organising a group trip, I’ll gladly tag along.

    UTV

  74. Apparently the tickets are approx 50 quid, the rip off companies are charging from 230, i’m not going but if anyone offers me one i’ll get it, you have first dibs.

  75. Steamer,

    I thought I had first dibs you plum.

    To be honest I have been to every final / semi final the Villa have been involved in, the first being the 1971 final against spuds so I would love to keep up my record, but I have had a lot of the stuffing knocked out of me over the last four or five years and cannot motivate myself to attend, the second reason is I would not feel happy going if someone like Frem did not have a ticket, so for those reasons I am out.

    I might go up and sit in a boozer with ST75 all afternoon and listen to him whine on about that fucking £20.

    Andrew,

    Its a 5 for me.

    AVFC ITWT

  76. I am a 8 out of 10 for staying up now lambert has gone as i believe he was the single main factor in the club performing so badly ,plus there are 4 clubs at or near the bottom of the lge that are looking pretty hopeless at the minute

  77. Don’t know what to make of Saturday. I’m going to that one also with two other mates so it will be good but at the same time it’s a huge game. We could move above Sunderland or they could leave day light between us. Defoe always seems to score against us and we are helping hand Villa normally. They need. Win and I wonder how our players will react after two wins. Will they think they are world beaters and don’t have to try anymore or will they show professionalism and win?

    Huge game

  78. Good ratings chaps and chapeses….more positive than me!

    Im very afraid it will go to the last game against Burnley.

    Frem

    The next 2 games for me are defining. I dont believe we will get much in April so 4 or 6 points really is a must.

  79. On Gil…

    That was my thought about TS’s view on Gill before he said anything.

    I’d trust TS on this. Gil is certainly a nice player but without experience of English dog-fights. He wouldn’t have fought under Francis Drake, like some of us, so wouldn’t know about the bulldog breed… 😉

  80. Good Mooning Loofers

    Just thought I`d go a bit `Allo Allo on ya…..younger readers,ask an old codger about Allo Allo.

    Moi?I am a 6.75 on us staying up and 7.5 on the future under TS,whatever standard we find ourselves at next season.I will meet up any of you in London or at Wembley,but will not be at the game.I won`t be hunting a ticket,I haven`t attended for 4 years,so there are far more worthy receirients than I.Anyway ,I couldn`t stand being in the vicinity of so many bindippers,can`t stand the club.fans or media love in for them.But,let`s hope it`s Bburn.

  81. Andrew,
    7.5 for me.
    SWV,
    Last time i went to Wemberlee was the Charity Shield and i’m not putting any more money into the pockets of spivs, the National Stadium should be accessible to everyone not just Cockenees, the Labour Minister lied THREE times about financial deadlines otherwise we could have had twice the stadium at half the price and it would be in the middle of the country where it should be, BIRMINGHAM.
    Good post by Clive, Pearse is a novelty, he got the job by screaming down the mike like the idiot he is, taking off the Brazilian commentators, Ron Toss does it now. Lawrenson used to play for PNE with Michael Robinson who is a Villan, i think Robinson gave him a kicking and he certainly hates Villa now, who cares ?

  82. Hello people. Andrew, it’s a 6 for me but quite fragile. Another bad result for us and one of the bottom 3 puts a couple of decent results together and it doesn’t look so hopeful.

    Darren, think you might find semi-final tickets reasonably easy to get hold of. Someone told me we’ll get 35,000 tickets which is a lot more than the number of season ticket holders. I’m hoping so anyway because I’ve promised to take 2 of my kids with me and we’ve only got 2 season tickets. From memory, it wasn’t hard to get tickets for the Bolton game in 2000. Final tickets are another matter though because of all the corporates and local FA allocations.

  83. I think a corner has been turned with the two wins. They will beat Sunderland. Unless something totally unexpected comes up they won’t be relegated. Although if Lerner is relegated I wouldn’t complain.

  84. lm bored with this winning streak ,(((……….

    seriously …. My Nephews next fight is on Saturday 25th April at the Barclays Arena ( NIA) its against a lad from Germany Named Ranny Saadeh ,( you can see him on youtube ) lm hearing this is a world championship fight , the tickets go on sale friday , it’s the only fight that will be in Brum . l think his next might be in Europe , let me know if your interested in going , Brummie lad Brummie support , will be streamed worldwide as before ,
    cheers

    D,O,R if l get one will be in touch , my brothers,a ST holder and l dont think he’s bothering , lm for a piss up though down there

  85. I’d would of fancied seeing us at weberlee too but dad used to book tickets so no history and it looks like all the people that owe me £20 that would of paid for the trip wont be there.

    steamer- why would you inflict that on us? he looks like he’d been up all night writing it, bless.

    JL- very interesting stuff, did you ever come across a chap called Phillip Marshall? an ex cia pilot who flew many missions in South America. He worked out that 911 was an inside job and described how it was done. I heard him on a talk show 3 months before he was found dead in his house along with his kids and dog all shot in the head once. he lived on a gated estate and nobody heard anything. on the show he was talking of new evidence that would blow it wide open. He also stated he knew he was in danger and stated for the record he was not suicidal on the show.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2275258/Phillip-Marshall-Former-airline-pilot-conspiracy-theorist-shot-dead-teenage-children-dog-turning-gun-himself.html

  86. Hello All AVLIFERS!

    Andrew

    A week ago it would had been 4, now Im quite positive we are staying up, so 9 at the moment.
    3 points on saturday would make it 10. Have to say.

  87. Mark,

    The Marshall thing is indeed interesting, but that 9/11 thing now seems to be only one jigsaw piece in the whole picture of what’s been going on these last 200 years. It’s people like Webre and Parkes I look to in an effort to get a much bigger picture.

    Added to the women’s abuse book links I put up last week, there appears to be so much going on that’s been covered up that it’s highly disturbing.

    One of the things I’ve just followed up on as a result of Webre is the legal action initiated against the Pope, the Jesuits, the Archbishop of Canterbury and …. the Queen! … concerning child abuse in the church. The action was initiated by Kevin Annett, a Canadian church missionary, who uncovered abuse and slaughter of 50,000 Indian children in Canada over some decades, and very much within living memory. Plus other matters.

  88. John we live in strange times but the Marshall killing is fairly blatant to me yet passes totally ignored by the vast majority.
    People are so excepting of the official verdict its shocking, its like they don’t really notice or care. The information isn’t hidden its in plain view but is ridiculed, Disinformation is rife and excepted as truth as is mainstream medicine, politics etc.

  89. Ian- is old school funk good for your teeth?

    TS dishing out the soundbites again

    “Sherwood said: “We want to drag people in who are above us and make sure they get some squeaky bum time.”

    wonder what Lambert would of done if TS had come in as a coach, Lambert seems to take from those around him so maybe his quotes would of risen above “we’ll go again” and abandoned defending all together.

  90. Mark: People are so excepting of the official verdict its shocking, its like they don’t really notice or care. The information isn’t hidden its in plain view but is ridiculed, Disinformation is rife and excepted as truth as is mainstream medicine, politics etc.

    Exactly, but I was trying to say that by putting focus on one specific event is why it tends to get buried. There has to be a way of presenting one issue as part of a much bigger story – *then* people will take notice.

    People are so conditioned in their thinking that they can’t see a drift taking place. Not that I’m pessimistic of the future – I’m not – but it is pretty clear that something is gathering momentum and is going to come to a head in the next year or two.

  91. And they had the nerve to call the Soviet Union ‘The Evil Empire.’

    Jen, sorry about that, S75 mentioned you had an appointment at the Dentists,

  92. Mark,

    I could have added that December, 2012 was the point when “that something is gathering momentum” particularly accelerated. A lot of issues are now emerging, particularly in the world of paedophilia. And a lot more will emerge.

  93. JL,
    Strange that the Kennedy’s, Astors, Vanderbilts etc are regarded as royalty yet they all made their fortunes from criminal, and in some cases, barbaric circumstances, and, indeed, the Labour Gov gave IRA supporting Ted Kennedy an Honoury Knighthood, the man that left MJ Kopechnik to drown in his his car while he staggered away drunk.

  94. Steamer,
    You are absolutely right again. The Kennedy’s were / are pure poison. Old Joe had his daughter lobotomised without mentioning it to his wife. The first time Jack ever saw poverty was in the West Virginia primary. He made all the right sounds about it, but it was his successor, Lyndon Johnson, who actually passed the needed legislation.

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